The Divide
By A.K. Dholakia On Wed 22 Nov 2006 |
Our subservient chairman yielded to the almighty lifeblood of Newcastle United, and respectfully installed Glenn Roeder as manager in accordance with the wishes, and indeed demands of the fans.
That’s the fallacious assertion insinuated into over-qualified statements, by sections of the media, that ultimately blame the fans for being disgruntled at a mess that we supported wholeheartedly.
Supporters of all clubs up and down the country all remonstrate against the misrepresentation and misinterpretation of what they deem to be the ‘true supporter’s opinion’. Naturally, this is an absurd statement in a game that was christened ‘a game of opinions’ - no such thing exists. That being said, there can, and does exist a consensus. This can be defined as the crucial perspective of the majority of fans. Minorities congregate too though, and are by no means exiguous or negligible, by definition. Furthermore, iin such a popular sport, the antithesis of the majority often has substantial numbers. The media tend to procure their information from within this minority.
You are just one person. You could not possibly hope to know the views of every supporter. No one could. How is it that the media or I could make such a choice? Utilizing polls to achieve the most accurate consensus given modest resources, perhaps? Of course, were this the case, the Mark Lawrensons of the world wouldn’t interject footage of supporter discontent with snide and typically cowardly sideswipes voicing how the fans are culpable, with total conviction. No tentative suggestion that some fans were in acquiescence with the chairman’s choice, just the propagation of a noxious generalization. Similarly, one might ask how I am sure about my theory of ‘minority-selection’. To be candid, I am not. It is an opinion that is representative of the fans that I have spoken to on my travels. The difference is, I would never dream of dressing it up as anything but that.
As a keen member of the forum of this site for many years, it occurred to me that generally speaking, the consensus regarding club matters, divided as it may be, tends to differ from those outside the forum. An example of this is the vociferous support Roeder has received from non-forumites in the face of forumite articles by those who would suggest Roeder’s tenure is at an end. [Incidentally, I do not know of any forumite that is pro-Roeder at this point. That is not to say that he is disliked, but no one seems him as our manager in the long-term as far as I am aware.] Is it not possible that our over-analysis is so concerted and intense within our little microcosm that conclusions are reached more swiftly and ahead of those, where football is not a 24-7 subject? Not to be dismissive of those outside the forum by any means, but chinks in the armour of arguments are exposed brutally at times, whilst in other mediums, constraints [usually pertaining to time] inhibit thorough analysis. Given that this is the only real 24-7 platform exclusively for Newcastle United matters, I would imagine it means that views are almost fast-tracked, if not somewhat reactionary at times, by virtue of the same intense characteristic.
The game is still one of many opinions, opinions that only time can validate or ridicule, but of late, a stance taken by increasing numbers, is that Glenn Roeder is not the biggest problem that Newcastle face, Freddy Shepherd is.

ash writes in saying:
firstly,
quit with the unnecessarily high brow vocab, its ridiculous and only confuses people, even tho i have an english a-level…
secondly,
i agree, freddy shepherd is the true root cause
thirdly,
theres no hope in hell glenn roeder was the supporters choice, in freddys own words he made this assumption thru his email inbox being crowded with positive recommendations of roeder. hardly the actions of an asute businessman!
shepherd out!
i may have completely missed your point, but with the words you were using i couldnt be fucked to read most of it!
REPLY
We said Ash, Spot on there mate. I am praying this takeover goes through well before the window opens which will allow some QUALITY signings and lets adios the hangers on/lazy twats/money grabbers. We know who they are, so do they.Lets get players with some heart and bollocks who want to play for the toon. Fingers crossed
Sent in on: November 23rd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
That last post reminds me of an away game at Everton a few seasons ago. Outside the ground, I was stopped by an old man wearing a ‘Jesus’ sandwich board. ‘The Toon will let you doon,’ said he, ‘Jesus won’t’.
We won 3-1 by the way.
Back on the subject - and I must say, I thought the original article was exceptional - I can only say that I know almost no one who wanted Roeder as manager. Surely, if there had been so many e mails and letters of support for Roeder, I would have to know at least one person who wrote one?
‘The fans wanted Roeder’ will be heard as the lights go out.
Sent in on: November 23rd, 2006 at 8:19 am
the difference is
all those other candidates; curbs, fat sam etc have got proven track records and have a good managerial pedigree!
roeder does not - lets face it. freddy just went for the cheapest option and because there were some voices supporting Roeder he then had an alibi incase things went to shit. like they always would have done! quite clever for mr. shepherd, given that after the souness sacking many people were saying it would be the last of his 9 lives to get it right. it appears by manipulating the situation like he has, he might have got himself one more just to hang on by..greedy bastard
SHEPHERD OUT
Sent in on: November 23rd, 2006 at 12:38 am
Whats the need for all the fancy language AKD? Your last sentence sums it up. It just shows how good our chairman actually is, he hasnt got the brain to do his job properly and find the right manager for the club, so he goes for the cheapest and easiest option available, and when it inevitably all went tits up he has the ordasity to blame the fans!!!! claiming: he was the fans favourite choice! Fuck me Freddy if your going to make excuses for your inability to do your job properly at least dont fuck that up as well, because you now look like an even bigger twat than we originally thought you were. He wasnt the fans choice, i think good old ottmar was, well at least on this website he was. Yet another person on this website with better football knowledge than freddy already pointed it out in another article:
Roeders previous: Enjoy….
Gillingham : First season 7th, Second season Relegated
Watford : First season 7th, Second season Relegated
West Ham : First season 7th, Second season Relegated
Newcastle : First season 7th, Second season ????
I hate to admit it but the old saying, the writing was on the wall, springs to mind!!
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Based on the opinions found on football messageboards I’d say Ottmar Hitzfeld was the supporters choice. Unfortunately there wasn’t a cat in hells chance of him coming to SJP. That he’s still out of work suggests he’s waiting for one of Europe’s top jobs, and like it or not managing NUFC isn’t one of Europe’s top jobs.
So leaving aside the unrealistic aspiration to land the only manager to win the CL, and the equally out of our reach Gus Hiddink, who was the supporters choice - O’Neill? Fat Sam? Curbishly? LeGuen? Roeder certainly had as much support as any of these.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 5:42 pm
despite what SBR said, its pretty clear that Freddy Shepherd has done an awful job in the elements he has control over, so even if he is gettin hassle from the Halls which we haven no evidence of it cannot be denied he has done no good for our club and has to go!
AKD, imo the language was just an attempt to dress up your article and make it sound more profound and intelligent then it really is. im also lazy, so sue me!
there is no way any newcastle fan can proclaim the great glenn roeder should have been our manager. and there was no ground study or fan opinion inspection by freddy, apparently he got all the opinions he required by lookin in2 his email inbox! and even if glenn was the ‘fans choice’ surely it wudda been in our best interest to go after a proven coach with a solid winning record i.e. O’Neill or Hitzfeld….
Shepherd out, he is a buffoon - end of
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 4:02 pm
AKD Some excellent points, well thought out! Of course we aren’t in any doubt that the fans on the boards are usually ahead of the game, and thus out on a limb most of the time. The question I would ask of the Tyneside Media Core, is ‘where the hell do you get your opinions from’, you are not representing the best interests of the club or the fans.
It seems to me that they form their own ‘Peer Group’ of opinion and fully ally themselves to the club Hierarchy for fear of being ostricised. This small group which includes all media comentators will not under any circumstances bite the hand that feeds it.
This mutually sinking Ouroborus panders and excuses the worst Chairman in the league, and then hides its own polls which indicated the fans wanted Hitzfeld or O’Neil, amazing! The Chairman turns around and tells us we wanted Roeder because he got lot of e-mails.
WHO HAS HIS E-MAIL ADDRESS?
ANSWER: THE TYNESIDE MEDIA CORE! There is your straw poll. There is your answer. There is the problem.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 11:22 am
RK, ‘fraid I’m not the ‘uncompromising’ full-back, just a weary old git with over 50 years of supporting the Toon behind him. So, while I am in the Toon this weekend, I won’t have my boots with me. Having been through the Seymour and Mitten years, been a neighbour and personal friend of Joe Harvey, put up with Alderman McKeag for more years than anyone should suffer, I don’t think that the current situation is any worse (or any better than many over the years). I suspect that, despite the Keegan years, the Halls are the ones who have really raped the club, and are still doing so. For that reason I would support any takeover that doesn’t involve a property developer. We may not own SJP, but other facilities (i.e. Little Benton) are probably worth a few bob).
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 10:32 am
Bob
I’ve chipped in now. Always willing to contribute constructively
Unfortunately I’ve little time for trolls
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 10:04 am
RE: John Anderson
Thanks for the articulate and comprehensible comments. Couldn’t agree more.
In other circumstances Roeder would not have been the first choice of many. It seems to me that some people believed that if we just shouted enough, we’d get the “right man”. A number cried for Martin O’Neil, who was never gong to take another job which meant him living away from his family and home in High Wycombe. There was also the Hitzfeld campaign, calling for a guy to come out of semi retirement from living half way up a mountain in Switzerland.
I would have loved to have seen somebody of their calibre appointed instead of Graeme Souness. Maybe this time around, Freddy Shepherd knowing we were potless, knew we couldn’t attract from the top tier of proven managemers
As it was, after Souness, Roeder did a great job as a stand in; definately earning the right to have a crack at it. Consequently he was rewarded with a short term contract
I also am glad somebody else has stated the obvious about Freddy Shepherd. The Halls are the majority owners of the club and appointed him to be chairman when he had a small minority shareholding. They still at any time could call for him to removed.
PS if you’re “The” John Anderson, one of the most uncompromising full backs I’ve ever seen; bring your boots at the weekend :0)
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 10:00 am
As for Lawro and his army of lobotomised apes that claim status in the misnamed profession of ‘punditry’, the public should start treating their opinions as a Britney Spears record: cheap, disposable coasters.
Regarding the article, which was accurate, succinct, penned in modern English (contrary to A-Level Ash’s assertions), it is important to treat it more as a reflective Dylan or Leonard Cohen EP, where each melody has an insightful piercing into the human condition and each comma representative of the pigsty state of this club currently.
And who to point the finger to? Surely none other than the plump farmer who chews on daffodils of dividends while crafting another impulsive repair plan for this club which is slowly beginning to creak beneath his weight.
The answer is simple: Either get it right Fred, one last time, or please, just go. And take your incestuous boardroom members.
Another interesting point the writer brings up is the glaring disparity in opinions between those follow the toon digitally and those who view following the team as going to the cinema.
Nobody is saying either opinion is correct or wrong, but if wankers in the media are making generalised, pulled-out-of-their-arse remarks about the shared opinion on Tyneside (which were echoed by Shepherd recently who said he didn’t receive one email that didn’t want Roeder in-charge after the end of last season) — (funny Hammers) — then they’re simply not worth the money they’re being paid to do their job. What they’re promoting is ignorance, propaganda, or just showing the world how clueless, lazy, pathetic, sad and stupid they really are.
Thank you.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 9:54 am
It’s sad that Rob has taken the time to come on and read the article and then not actually take part in the discussion.
What AKD says may have gone round the houses a bit but don’t knock him for contributing.
The point he is making (I think) is that, is it the case that people like ourselves, who congregate in,on and around forums like this, tend to analize, and therefore reach conclusion, on issues surrounding the club too quickly or very quickly. He’s probably right, but it is alot of fun being Judge and Juror, and seeing what is talked about on forums actually coming out or to fruition, days or weeks afterwards is like deja vu.
It probably boils down to the fact that not everyone who contributes is talking bollocks and that sometimes the opinions and thoeries are based on solid judgement.
I very much doubt that it’s because people in control actually value our opinions, and therefore use forums to try and gauge what fan opinion is.
The appointment of Roeder is an example of this, of the 50,000 fans in SJP and the hundreds of thousands outside, I honestly don’t think that many actually wanted him on a permanent basis, especially as he said himself that he didn’t want it (you should always trust your gut instincts).
IMHO the only reason that FFS appointed Roeder was because after touting the job around (off the record) to various big name managers, he realised that no-one wanted the job. The reason for them not wanting the job being his constant undermining of his Managers, whist hiding behind his favourite catchphrase “I have always backed my managers”.
The only way forward for the club now is for FFS and the HAlls to go and sell to someone who wants to make a success of the club, and not, as is the case now, wants to make themselves a success out of the club.
If belgravia do make a formal approach, and this is by no means a certainty, then I think it will be a great oportunity for the club to move forward, at least in the short to medium term. I doubt that they want the club in the long term, but if they can invest in it turn around it’s success on the pitch and then flog it(once the share price has increased) on to someone interested long term then that’s fine by me.
As they say “it’s good to talk!!!!!”
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 9:45 am
There is no way Roeder was the fans choice. Come on people. We were told there were ‘world class’ managers lining up to manage the toon. Roeder was doing a great job at the academy - and did a decent job as caretaker manager - albeit with Shearer in the dressing room. Being manager is completely different. We needed to push on, get someone with experience of being successful at a top flight club. Someone to attract good players.
What happened to these world class mangers???
We are in a mess - and eventually the buck stops with the top man. Shepherd is chairman - after 10 years in the position we have gone backwards. Enough is enough.
Shepherd, get out - before you take our club down. Roeder should go back to the academy -i’m sure not many fans want him out of the club.
SHEPHERD OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 9:38 am
Just a thought - was there any attempt, either by the club or the local press, to do a proper survey of fans’ opinions? Internet or phone-in polls only reflect the opinions of those who are very keen, and can be distorted by multiple voting or campaigning. Chanting at the ground isn’t a clear indication, and as for Freddie and his e-mails…..
A few pollsters outside the ground on a match day would have produced a much more reliable impression, but I don’t think it ever happened.
Either way, this idea that Freddie was swept along by the sheer volume of support for Roeder is a myth that has been perpetrated by Freddie himself as a way of saving his own hide. If the local press were anything but a bunch of frightened toadies, they’d have ridiculed him for it. The absence of any critical voice in the press is a real problem.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 9:14 am
I feel sorry for Ash. If he can’t bebothered to read what IMHO is perfectly good English then I suggest he goes back to Janet & John, which I guess is about the standard required for an English Language O-level these days.
As to ‘The Divide’:
1. I don’t know which forums AKD visits, but many fans (and certainly a majority) did believe Roeder should be given at least a short term contract as a reward for his achievements last season.
2. From the forums I visit I would estimate that at least 50% of fans are still behind Roeder, even if it is because they feel another management change would be an even more detrimental step.
3. Is FSS the root of all evil? The Halls have more power on the board than FSS so should we be blaming the board as a whole and not just Freddie? Remember that SBR wrote the other week that in his opinion an FSS takeover would be a good thing. Don’t you think that he knows a lot more about what goes on in the backroom than we do.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 9:03 am
Amused to read this article about the minority and majority opinion of supporters. Complaining about forums such as this one being ignored by the media is pointless if said opinions are written in a manner that make them innaccessable to virtually anyone who reads them.
On the point of the article itself, we shouldn’t talk about ‘majority’ and ‘minority’ opinions, this creates a divide between supporters. Would it not just have been easier to delete everything written and write: ‘Supporters are leaning towards the view that Freddy Sheherd is the main problem at our club’ and on that, I whole-heartedly agree.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 8:55 am
Mr Logic, if you speak the way you write; I guess you must already have made acquaintance with Biffa Bacon, on one of your many visits to St James’s
Wouldn’t normally bite to trolls like you, but hey ho it took less time for me to respond, than it did for you to compose….
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 8:51 am
firstly,
quit with the unnecessarily high brow vocab, its ridiculous and only confuses people, even tho i have an english a-level…
secondly,
i agree, freddy shepherd is the true root cause
thirdly,
theres no hope in hell glenn roeder was the supporters choice, in freddys own words he made this assumption thru his email inbox being crowded with positive recommendations of roeder. hardly the actions of an asute businessman!
shepherd out!
i may have completely missed your point, but with the words you were using i couldnt be fucked to read most of it!
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 3:21 am
Hello,
I believe that Freddy should sell, he loves the club and it would be a benefit to the fans for him to sell.
The curse hangs over Newcastle United, they need God ! even the fans. People canot go through life ignoring the supernatural which is stronger then soccer !
If people worship a Man, which can be an icon, then that icon will fail. we can have our own way, God gave us that right.
On the provision that people do not mock Jesus, then their is light in the tunnel, even in Soccer. quentin dunn, Poet.
Sent in on: November 22nd, 2006 at 2:09 am