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Author Topic: The Sopranos - Series 6 *Discussion up to episode 21* - The End.  (Read 3718 times)
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DJ_NUFC
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« Reply #300 on: June 24, 2007, 07:04:43 PM »

I finally got around to catching up with you lot and watched the last episode last night.

I have to say, this season has been spectacular, cerebral and ultimately heartwrenching, in the typical vein of way the show's been since its conception.

It's absolutely fuckin' brilliant.

First of all, after much contemplation and replaying the final 5 minutes of the finale over and over again, I've come to conclusion that Tony is, in fact, whacked.

Here're some of the reasons:

1) The guy at the bar is Nikke Leotardo, Phil's cousin (or nephew), and has appeared earlier in the season when they all had a 'sit-down' regarding Vito.

2) The black guys coming in are the same ones that tried to whack Tony in season 2 or 3.

3) The hark back to the clip of Bobby and Tone on the boat, "you don't even hear it coming."

In typical Chase fashion, surrealism is applied in the final 15 minutes as we follow Tony into the restaurant and he sees himself sitting there in a similar shirt he was wearing when Uncle June shot him.

We *cut* to a medium shot of the Tony sitting down in the shirt, and we watch as his family slowly starts filing into the restaurant. There are only about three perspectives: One of Tony's as he overlooks everyone who enters the restaurant (accompanied by a chime of the door opening), a third-person POV (possibly the shooter's?) which is watching Tony as he reads the menu and such, and the third one which follows Meadow parking the car outside.

Once these POVs are taken into account, it's clear that the parting shot is one from Tony's perspective, and then bang, there's a hard cut to black, with absolutely nothing happening, and only after a few seconds do the credits begin to roll.

It's that simple. If he were still living, we'd have seen the credits roll immediately, with the screen fading to black, leaving the ending ambiguous. But we don't because the ending's a definite one.

Of course, with all this talk of a movie and a return to the series is making me think I might be wrong and, as Happy Face said, would show Chase to have pulled a f****** gimmick to trick us with that finale.

I don't believe that's the case, as the show has always treated and credited its audience with intelligence. Noting the backlash the ending has received, however, I don't think that might've been such a good idea from the beginning!

Now, ending aside, it's definite that I'm going to f****** miss this show to death. It was one of the few smart shows, where theme, theory and abstract ideas about characters and  plotlines were explored and rewarded, with crisp dialogue which held the power of leaving you in stitches in the worst possible scenario that characters found themselves in, and acting and direction that surely will not be surpassed in television.

Quite frankly, this show had it. Whatever that is, it had it. Whatever plateau there was to reach and sustain, they reached it and never fell.

Favourite characters, of course, were Chris and Paulie. 'Gutted' wouldn't describe how I felt when Chrissy died, and in such fashion. The image of the fading dim light on Tony's face as he held Chris's nose will stay with all viewer's forever, I'm sure.

Of course, it could be argued that due to the contractual disputes HBO had with the actors it felt as if they rushed the ending, and far too much time was spent on nominal characters instead of story. However, taking that into account, I think they ended the show as well as they could have. Some of my friends have complained there was no all-out war except for the penultimate episode, and I agree, maybe an extra episode could've been dedicated to that instead of AJ's neverending histrionics, but was the show ever really about that? It never was a Goodfellas, instead it was a slow-burning Godfather set in modern-day jersey about the wilting powers of an age-old culture and the effects that leading such a lifestyle has on the psyche of our protagonist.

And in the end, he gets what was always coming to him. Either time behind bars or a bullet to the head. I prefer the latter.
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His movie-list included Potemkin, Kane, Otto e Mezzo, The
Seven Samurai, Alphaville, El Angel Exterminador. "You've been brainwashed," Gibreel scoffed. "All this Western art-house
crap...your head's so full of junk," he advised Saladin, "you forgot
everything worth knowing."
The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie.

Guy Debord and the Aesthetics of Cine-Sabotage

Just as the projection was about to begin, Guy-Ernest Debord was supposed to step onto the stage and make a few introductory remarks. Had he done so, he would simply have said: 'There is no film. Cinema is dead. No more films are possible. If you wish, we can move on to a discussion.'
Jonny2J
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« Reply #301 on: June 24, 2007, 07:09:43 PM »

Hell of a post there. 
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"That was a negative, and right now I need two positives. One to cancel out the negative and another one, you know, just so I can have a positive."
DJ_NUFC
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« Reply #302 on: June 24, 2007, 07:14:35 PM »

Hell of a post there. 

Cheers Smile. I felt I had to let it all out, and since I haven't cried since I was a wee lad, this post was gonna have to suffice.

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His movie-list included Potemkin, Kane, Otto e Mezzo, The
Seven Samurai, Alphaville, El Angel Exterminador. "You've been brainwashed," Gibreel scoffed. "All this Western art-house
crap...your head's so full of junk," he advised Saladin, "you forgot
everything worth knowing."
The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie.

Guy Debord and the Aesthetics of Cine-Sabotage

Just as the projection was about to begin, Guy-Ernest Debord was supposed to step onto the stage and make a few introductory remarks. Had he done so, he would simply have said: 'There is no film. Cinema is dead. No more films are possible. If you wish, we can move on to a discussion.'
Happy Face
Rants & Opinion
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TAFKANP


« Reply #303 on: June 24, 2007, 07:39:00 PM »

Agree DJ, I posted similar less eloquently on IMDB when it aired...

Quote
It was very carefully executed (pun intended) scene. It's not just that it goes to Tony's point of view all the time, but the point of view is only ever ours or Tony's, Whenever Tony is looking at Carmella, it's directly from his line of vision, none of Tony is in the shot. Whenever we look at Tony from Carmella's point of view, it's from behind her back/over her shoulder.

We only ever see Tony from behind someone else, we never see their point of view of him or anything else.

Given that the entire scene is made up of the viewers perspective and Tony's, the cut from Tony's face to blackness is the cut from our point of view to his. Nothing. He was killed, and not only is he dead, but it looks like there is no afterlife.

I also like the idea that the viewer has been whacked, that we've been part of the family and this is how it ends for us. But given the assembly of the scene, that it consists only of our point of view and Tony's these are the only 2 possibilities.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141842/board/nest/76612739?p=14&d=76669061#76669061

I think the first 2 of your 3 numbered points have been debunked (not certain) but the third one is spot on.  Trivia fact:  The guy at the bar is wearing a members only jacket,  the first episode of the season was called 'Members Only'.
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Just because it was death by Monkey doesn't make it funny - danswan
Happy Face
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TAFKANP


« Reply #304 on: June 24, 2007, 07:57:02 PM »

Here it is...

https://testpattern.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/06/11/222698.aspx
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Just because it was death by Monkey doesn't make it funny - danswan
DJ_NUFC
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« Reply #305 on: June 24, 2007, 08:16:16 PM »

Agree DJ, I posted similar less eloquently on IMDB when it aired...

Quote
It was very carefully executed (pun intended) scene. It's not just that it goes to Tony's point of view all the time, but the point of view is only ever ours or Tony's, Whenever Tony is looking at Carmella, it's directly from his line of vision, none of Tony is in the shot. Whenever we look at Tony from Carmella's point of view, it's from behind her back/over her shoulder.

We only ever see Tony from behind someone else, we never see their point of view of him or anything else.

Given that the entire scene is made up of the viewers perspective and Tony's, the cut from Tony's face to blackness is the cut from our point of view to his. Nothing. He was killed, and not only is he dead, but it looks like there is no afterlife.

I also like the idea that the viewer has been whacked, that we've been part of the family and this is how it ends for us. But given the assembly of the scene, that it consists only of our point of view and Tony's these are the only 2 possibilities.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141842/board/nest/76612739?p=14&d=76669061#76669061

I think the first 2 of your 3 numbered points have been debunked (not certain) but the third one is spot on.  Trivia fact:  The guy at the bar is wearing a members only jacket,  the first episode of the season was called 'Members Only'.

Big Grin

Since I'm at work I'm not at liberty to check out the links you've provided, but I will when I get home. The Members Only thing is true. So it seems Mr. Chase had this ending planned out long before!

Logged

His movie-list included Potemkin, Kane, Otto e Mezzo, The
Seven Samurai, Alphaville, El Angel Exterminador. "You've been brainwashed," Gibreel scoffed. "All this Western art-house
crap...your head's so full of junk," he advised Saladin, "you forgot
everything worth knowing."
The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie.

Guy Debord and the Aesthetics of Cine-Sabotage

Just as the projection was about to begin, Guy-Ernest Debord was supposed to step onto the stage and make a few introductory remarks. Had he done so, he would simply have said: 'There is no film. Cinema is dead. No more films are possible. If you wish, we can move on to a discussion.'
brummie
Who The Fuck Are They!?
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« Reply #306 on: June 24, 2007, 11:33:20 PM »

Don't now if it has been mentioned, but this absolutely excellent explanation of the last episode is required reading:

https://www.bobharris.com/content/view/1406/1/

David Chase == god.
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Happy Face
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TAFKANP


« Reply #307 on: June 25, 2007, 12:00:56 AM »

Cheers Brummie,  Had a quick scan and there's loads I missed.  I'll have a proper read tomorrow, but particularly loving the last supper/communion stuff.
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Just because it was death by Monkey doesn't make it funny - danswan
DJ_NUFC
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« Reply #308 on: June 25, 2007, 06:56:48 AM »

Don't now if it has been mentioned, but this absolutely excellent explanation of the last episode is required reading:

https://www.bobharris.com/content/view/1406/1/

David Chase == god.

I forgot to thank you. Read it all. Excellent linkie.
Logged

His movie-list included Potemkin, Kane, Otto e Mezzo, The
Seven Samurai, Alphaville, El Angel Exterminador. "You've been brainwashed," Gibreel scoffed. "All this Western art-house
crap...your head's so full of junk," he advised Saladin, "you forgot
everything worth knowing."
The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie.

Guy Debord and the Aesthetics of Cine-Sabotage

Just as the projection was about to begin, Guy-Ernest Debord was supposed to step onto the stage and make a few introductory remarks. Had he done so, he would simply have said: 'There is no film. Cinema is dead. No more films are possible. If you wish, we can move on to a discussion.'
brummie
Who The Fuck Are They!?
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« Reply #309 on: June 25, 2007, 09:54:37 PM »

I've watched the end scene a few more times since, and it gives me goosebumps every time.

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DJ_NUFC
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« Reply #310 on: June 25, 2007, 11:09:53 PM »

I've watched the end scene a few more times since, and it gives me goosebumps every time.



Yeah man, after figuring everything out, it finally settles on you. Tony is dead (sob).
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His movie-list included Potemkin, Kane, Otto e Mezzo, The
Seven Samurai, Alphaville, El Angel Exterminador. "You've been brainwashed," Gibreel scoffed. "All this Western art-house
crap...your head's so full of junk," he advised Saladin, "you forgot
everything worth knowing."
The Satanic Verses, Salman Rushdie.

Guy Debord and the Aesthetics of Cine-Sabotage

Just as the projection was about to begin, Guy-Ernest Debord was supposed to step onto the stage and make a few introductory remarks. Had he done so, he would simply have said: 'There is no film. Cinema is dead. No more films are possible. If you wish, we can move on to a discussion.'
Parky
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« Reply #311 on: June 25, 2007, 11:55:53 PM »

I've watched the end scene a few more times since, and it gives me goosebumps every time.



Yeah man, after figuring everything out, it finally settles on you. Tony is dead (sob).


He lives on in our hearts fella.
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robster
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Bring back the Tango


« Reply #312 on: October 29, 2007, 12:00:35 PM »

I've watched the end scene a few more times since, and it gives me goosebumps every time.



Yeah man, after figuring everything out, it finally settles on you. Tony is dead (sob).


He lives on in our hearts fella.

I only just saaw it last night.... I cant believe there will be no more new episodes... I'm so sad
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BlufPurdi
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WWW
« Reply #313 on: October 29, 2007, 02:39:52 PM »

Still got a mate denying he's dead.  I'm kind of with him, until you realise by doing that, you're doing the whole work put into the end of the show a disservice.
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Truth will first be ridiculed, then violently opposed, and finally accepted as self-evident.
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
Every generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it.
The first people totalitarians destroy or silence are men of ideas and free minds.
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.
robster
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Bring back the Tango


« Reply #314 on: October 29, 2007, 07:33:53 PM »

Still got a mate denying he's dead.  I'm kind of with him, until you realise by doing that, you're doing the whole work put into the end of the show a disservice.

I dont want to believe it either but your right though, you just have to admire the absolute genius of the writing
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"Those who want respect, give respect" - Tony Soprano
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