Haswell
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« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2007, 05:36:37 PM » |
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Thank you for that. I realise the Shah, bolstered by we horrible western governments, was a nasty bloke.
How is that relevant to an Islamic theocracy whos publically stated Israel should be wiped off the map, aqquiring the means to do so?
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"The computer allows you to make mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila."
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"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the same extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart" -- HL Mencken.
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Parky
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« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2007, 05:44:02 PM » |
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Perhaps if we'd left the democratically elected leader in place we might not have ended up where we are now with Iran. Although you try and undercut my point with kiddie language  ....the point still stands. The Taliban those other fundamentalist were funded by American for nearly 8 years.... So no the americans aren't that obsessed with right and wrong...Or "world security" or morals as thier history clearly shows if you care to look with an open mind.  |
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Parky
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« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2007, 05:48:48 PM » |
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Does too compute
Aqquiring N weapons would not deter Israel. They would get in amongst the Iranians long before the latter developed delivery systems. They would hardly be a deterrent to American Invasion. The Septics would carpet bomb everywhere for weeks and constantly remind Iran that if they deployed Nukes theyd be signing the death warrant of their own country.
Seeing Iran is not a democracy, millions of people would die without benefit of choice whether to spend all their income from Pistachio nuts and carpets on education and health rather than Nukes.
It's more of a democracy now than when we and the americans were meddling in there. I agree with Rob on this it has got to a situation where after seeing what happenned in Iraq they see no other choice. Nope there is another choice they just choose not to see it. i.e. as a state stop sponsoring terrorism and just say "OK Israel has a right to exist" And beleive you me I am no Israel lover or Zionist This state sponsoring terrorism is rich...AMERICA has been sponsoring terrorism in other coutries for decades..They invented it. Ask yourself why we are involved with this hiatus with Iran...What does it benefit us? All countries sponsor "terrorism" to suit their aims, it's not an American invention. We were doing it to the French via Spain in the peninsular war. As for Iran, we're involved because, like it or loathe it, their government is a bunch of heed the balls who happen to be in a country with considerable strategic importance in respect of that evil black stuff. Whilst that is a totally shitty reason to be "involved" it's a fact of modern life that if the oil don't flow we're screwed ....so tell me when the "sponsoring" and "meddling" and outright "genocide" comes home to roost what are you ganna do? Oh I've got it run to the U.N. and say they're not playing fair. Shame. Be honest we've been utter c***s to other countries for generations and sometime it will bite back. Talking is always the way forward imo as has been proved countless times. |
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Haswell
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« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2007, 05:52:49 PM » |
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Perhaps if we'd left the democratically elected leader in place we might not have ended up where we are now with Iran. Although you try and undercut my point with kiddie language ....the point still stands. I dont follow this at all? The Taliban those other fundamentalist were funded by American for nearly 8 years.... Good point but what can it mean? It means we live in a politically expedient world with constantly shifting alliegences. it is still looking after your own interests. So no the americans aren't that obsessed with right and wrong...Or "world security" or morals as thier history clearly shows if you care to look with an open mind. They have always cared first and foremost about their own security. Which is why they think attack is the best defence. |
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"The computer allows you to make mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila."
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"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the same extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart" -- HL Mencken.
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Parky
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« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2007, 05:55:29 PM » |
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Perhaps if we'd left the democratically elected leader in place we might not have ended up where we are now with Iran. Although you try and undercut my point with kiddie language ....the point still stands. I dont follow this at all? The Taliban those other fundamentalist were funded by American for nearly 8 years.... Good point but what can it mean? It means we live in a politically expedient world with constantly shifting alliegences. it is still looking after your own interests. So no the americans aren't that obsessed with right and wrong...Or "world security" or morals as thier history clearly shows if you care to look with an open mind. They have always cared first and foremost about their own security. Which is why they think attack is the best defence. So if these are the rules of the game lets play it to the end. *I see you didn't highlight my first point and feign confusion*. If they want to attack Iran let them...Give me one reason why we should get involved in their neo con (right wing religious) delusions. |
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TPIB
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« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2007, 06:17:04 PM » |
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Does too compute
Aqquiring N weapons would not deter Israel. They would get in amongst the Iranians long before the latter developed delivery systems. They would hardly be a deterrent to American Invasion. The Septics would carpet bomb everywhere for weeks and constantly remind Iran that if they deployed Nukes theyd be signing the death warrant of their own country.
Seeing Iran is not a democracy, millions of people would die without benefit of choice whether to spend all their income from Pistachio nuts and carpets on education and health rather than Nukes.
It's more of a democracy now than when we and the americans were meddling in there. I agree with Rob on this it has got to a situation where after seeing what happenned in Iraq they see no other choice. Nope there is another choice they just choose not to see it. i.e. as a state stop sponsoring terrorism and just say "OK Israel has a right to exist" And beleive you me I am no Israel lover or Zionist This state sponsoring terrorism is rich...AMERICA has been sponsoring terrorism in other coutries for decades..They invented it. Ask yourself why we are involved with this hiatus with Iran...What does it benefit us? All countries sponsor "terrorism" to suit their aims, it's not an American invention. We were doing it to the French via Spain in the peninsular war. As for Iran, we're involved because, like it or loathe it, their government is a bunch of heed the balls who happen to be in a country with considerable strategic importance in respect of that evil black stuff. Whilst that is a totally shitty reason to be "involved" it's a fact of modern life that if the oil don't flow we're screwed ....so tell me when the "sponsoring" and "meddling" and outright "genocide" comes home to roost what are you ganna do? Oh I've got it run to the U.N. and say they're not playing fair. Shame. Be honest we've been utter c***s to other countries for generations and sometime it will bite back. Talking is always the way forward imo as has been proved countless times. I agree with much of what you're sayi9ng, but when it does bite back, just make sure you've maintained a harder bite  |
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2sheds
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« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2007, 06:19:37 PM » |
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Japan surrendered on the same terms they accepted BEFORE the A bombs were dropped.
The country was on the verge of collapse anyway - see mcnamras 'fog of war'
Therefore there was no need to nuke Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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"probably because, Chelsea had very little history, to speak of. Before Bates.
Fact."
NE5 starting with a 'probably' and ending up with a 'fact'
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indi
Kuchiwato
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« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2007, 06:38:52 PM » |
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Where? Where? Everywhere, everywhere. |
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Was Nobby one of your favourite players? Want to do something to say thanks for his time at NUFC?
Even if he wasn't, do something positive today and give some of your spare cash to help the people of Peru recover from the recent devastating earthquake.Click the picture below: (Links to: Save The Children) Sorry for the f****** huge sig.
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macphisto
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« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2007, 07:10:42 PM » |
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Have not seen this point mentioned but there's no way Iran should be allowed nuclear weapons as the whole region would be even more screwed. You could safely say that Saudi Arabia and Egypt would try and obtain nuclear weapons to counter the "shi'ite threat". Considering that Saudi Arabia is pretty much ruled by fundamentalists and Egypt could easily go down that route once Mubarak goes then this really is not the time to start a weapons race in the region.
With regards to stopping the Iranian threat, then I would see a war by proxy with the USA and Saudi Arabia doing a deal with Israel to get them to bomb Iran, though by all accounts it would take more than bombing to stop the Iranian threat.
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indi
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« Reply #59 on: October 22, 2007, 07:16:28 PM » |
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It's pretty sad that no-one even pays lip-service to the idea of talking to governments we have a problem with anymore.
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Was Nobby one of your favourite players? Want to do something to say thanks for his time at NUFC?
Even if he wasn't, do something positive today and give some of your spare cash to help the people of Peru recover from the recent devastating earthquake.Click the picture below: (Links to: Save The Children) Sorry for the f****** huge sig.
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TPIB
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« Reply #60 on: October 22, 2007, 07:21:37 PM » |
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It's pretty sad that no-one even pays lip-service to the idea of talking to governments we have a problem with anymore.
Iran's chief nuclear negotiator just resigned because HIS government weren't listening to HIM, what chance the west  Mr Larijani has favoured further negotiations with the West over Iran's uranium enrichment programme, as opposed to the president's more hard-line approach |
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2sheds
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« Reply #61 on: October 22, 2007, 07:25:31 PM » |
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It's pretty sad that no-one even pays lip-service to the idea of talking to governments we have a problem with anymore.
Iran's chief nuclear negotiator just resigned because HIS government weren't listening to HIM, what chance the west Yes it's all Irans fault  Jaw jaw is always better than war war - unless you are Mr Cheney and co with large stocks in the defence industry. As for Israel being omitted from the list of rogue nations with nukes - google the samson option and see where this lot will go to in the last resort. |
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"probably because, Chelsea had very little history, to speak of. Before Bates.
Fact."
NE5 starting with a 'probably' and ending up with a 'fact'
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TPIB
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« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2007, 07:55:09 PM » |
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It's pretty sad that no-one even pays lip-service to the idea of talking to governments we have a problem with anymore.
Iran's chief nuclear negotiator just resigned because HIS government weren't listening to HIM, what chance the west Yes it's all Irans fault Jaw jaw is always better than war war - unless you are Mr Cheney and co with large stocks in the defence industry. As for Israel being omitted from the list of rogue nations with nukes - google the samson option and see where this lot will go to in the last resort.I agree Israel is a HUGE problem, BUT it's there and it ain't going anywhere, the rest of the region needs to "deal with it" BTW I did the "google" and frankly "so what" It's basically a localised version of MAD, difference is that in the cold war both sides had the sense to realise it wasn't worth it. Same can't be said for the Middle East, maybe turning the place into a sea of glass'd do us all a favour. |
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2sheds
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« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2007, 08:02:13 PM » |
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Thank you for that. I realise the Shah, bolstered by we horrible western governments, was a nasty bloke.
How is that relevant to an Islamic theocracy whos publically stated Israel should be wiped off the map, aqquiring the means to do so?
You can't find a single ACCURATE quote that says he said that. Shimon Peres on the other hand has threatened to wipe Iran off the map. |
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"probably because, Chelsea had very little history, to speak of. Before Bates.
Fact."
NE5 starting with a 'probably' and ending up with a 'fact'
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johnnypd
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« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2007, 11:45:12 PM » |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel"Wiped off the page of time" translation
Many news sources have presented one of Ahmadinejad's phrases in Persian as a statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map",[5][6][7] an English idiom which means to "cause a place to stop to exist",[8] or to "obliterate totally",[9] or "destroy completely".[10]
Ahmadinejad's phrase was " بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود " according to the text published on the President's Office's website.[11]
The translation presented by IRIB has been challenged by Mr. Arash Norouzi, who proposes that the statement "wiped off the map" was never made and that Ahmadinejad did not refer to the nation or land mass of Israel, but to the "regime occupying Jerusalem". He says that the Iranian government News Agency IRIB/IRNA translation is the source of the myth:
One may wonder: where did this false interpretation originate? Who is responsible for the translation that has sparked such worldwide controversy? The answer is surprising. The inflammatory 'wiped off the map' quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran's Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.[12]
According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:
The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[13]
Norouzi's translation is identical.[12] According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."[14]
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly.[15] On June 15, 2006 The Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele published an article based on this reasoning.[16]
Sources within the Iranian government have also denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat.[17][18][19] On 20 February 2006, Iran’s foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel “wiped off the map,” saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. "Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned," Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognise legally this regime," he said. Iran doesn't want Nuclear weapons in order to nuke someone, but to exploit them as bargaining tool, as a safeguard from US or Israeli attack, and as a shield, whose protection allows them to interfere in neighbouring countries with impunity.
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Haswell
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« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2007, 12:35:50 AM » |
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You can't find a single ACCURATE quote that says he said that. Depends where you look for accuracy. Howver, when he appeared at Columbia? University recently, he was asked to refute it. He did not. He was asked three times to qualify what he said. He completely ignored it. perhaps he thinks the issue will go away; just like Iran's gays? |
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"The computer allows you to make mistakes faster than any other invention, with the possible exception of handguns and tequila."
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"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the same extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart" -- HL Mencken.
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2sheds
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« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2007, 01:49:07 AM » |
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You can't find a single ACCURATE quote that says he said that. Depends where you look for accuracy. Howver, when he appeared at Columbia? University recently, he was asked to refute it. He did not. He was asked three times to qualify what he said. He completely ignored it. perhaps he thinks the issue will go away; just like Iran's gays? I don't believe he confirmed he said it either. This is a good read on the matter https://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/news/rumor-of-the-century/Read the lot it will (or should) raise some questions for you. BTW I expected you to ignore the Peres bit. Zionists always do |
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"probably because, Chelsea had very little history, to speak of. Before Bates.
Fact."
NE5 starting with a 'probably' and ending up with a 'fact'
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2sheds
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« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2007, 02:00:48 AM » |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel"Wiped off the page of time" translation
Many news sources have presented one of Ahmadinejad's phrases in Persian as a statement that "Israel must be wiped off the map",[5][6][7] an English idiom which means to "cause a place to stop to exist",[8] or to "obliterate totally",[9] or "destroy completely".[10]
Ahmadinejad's phrase was " بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود " according to the text published on the President's Office's website.[11]
The translation presented by IRIB has been challenged by Mr. Arash Norouzi, who proposes that the statement "wiped off the map" was never made and that Ahmadinejad did not refer to the nation or land mass of Israel, but to the "regime occupying Jerusalem". He says that the Iranian government News Agency IRIB/IRNA translation is the source of the myth:
One may wonder: where did this false interpretation originate? Who is responsible for the translation that has sparked such worldwide controversy? The answer is surprising. The inflammatory 'wiped off the map' quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran's Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.[12]
According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as:
The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).[13]
Norouzi's translation is identical.[12] According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian". Instead, "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse."[14]
The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) translates the phrase similarly.[15] On June 15, 2006 The Guardian columnist and foreign correspondent Jonathan Steele published an article based on this reasoning.[16]
Sources within the Iranian government have also denied that Ahmadinejad issued any sort of threat.[17][18][19] On 20 February 2006, Iran’s foreign minister denied that Tehran wanted to see Israel “wiped off the map,” saying Ahmadinejad had been misunderstood. "Nobody can remove a country from the map. This is a misunderstanding in Europe of what our president mentioned," Manouchehr Mottaki told a news conference, speaking in English, after addressing the European Parliament. "How is it possible to remove a country from the map? He is talking about the regime. We do not recognise legally this regime," he said. Iran doesn't want Nuclear weapons in order to nuke someone, but to exploit them as bargaining tool, as a safeguard from US or Israeli attack, and as a shield, whose protection allows them to interfere in neighbouring countries with impunity. Good read johnny. I went to the original article that wikipedia links to and read it in total. But MEMRI are not worth quoting as evidence as they are part of the machine that perpetuates this lie on Israels behalf. Evidence from Memri's website also casts doubt on its non-partisan status. Besides supporting liberal democracy, civil society, and the free market, the institute also emphasises "the continuing relevance of Zionism to the Jewish people and to the state of Israel".
That is what its website used to say, but the words about Zionism have now been deleted. The original page, however, can still be found in internet archives.
The reason for Memri's air of secrecy becomes clearer when we look at the people behind it. The co-founder and president of Memri, and the registered owner of its website, is an Israeli called Yigal Carmon.
Mr - or rather, Colonel - Carmon spent 22 years in Israeli military intelligence and later served as counter-terrorism adviser to two Israeli prime ministers, Yitzhak Shamir and Yitzhak Rabin.
Retrieving another now-deleted page from the archives of Memri's website also throws up a list of its staff. Of the six people named, three - including Col Carmon - are described as having worked for Israeli intelligence.
Among the other three, one served in the Israeli army's Northern Command Ordnance Corps, one has an academic background, and the sixth is a former stand-up comedian.
Col Carmon's co-founder at Memri is Meyrav Wurmser, who is also director of the centre for Middle East policy at the Indianapolis-based Hudson Institute, which bills itself as "America's premier source of applied research on enduring policy challenges".
The ubiquitous Richard Perle, chairman of the Pentagon's defence policy board, recently joined Hudson's board of trustees.
Ms Wurmser is the author of an academic paper entitled Can Israel Survive Post-Zionism? in which she argues that leftwing Israeli intellectuals pose "more than a passing threat" to the state of Israel, undermining its soul and reducing its will for self-defence. https://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.htmlRichard Perle is involved with that lot ffs I agree with most of what you said about Irans desire for nuclear weapons - except for the bit about wanting to interfere in neighbouring countries with impunity. I don't see Iran as a particularly aggressive nation, I think their desire for nuclear weapons is driven by wishing to avoid the fate of Iraq, and to stop Israel's nukes from threatening them. |
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"probably because, Chelsea had very little history, to speak of. Before Bates.
Fact."
NE5 starting with a 'probably' and ending up with a 'fact'
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Ridzuan
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« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2007, 03:41:50 AM » |
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The world has to agree with the US here.A nuclear arms for Iran would mean disaster.Iran cant be trusted and if they were to have the nuclear arms,it would lead to serious consequences.
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"My dream as a kid was to play for Newcastle United and to score goals at St James’ Park. It doesn’t matter that I didn’t win a trophy because I did it my way and I lived the dream. Unless you come from the area you wouldn’t understand that mentality. Playing for the club is everything. I broke Jackie’s record and no one can take that away from me. I’ve never had any regrets. I’m finished now and I have great memories.":- Alan Shearer
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TPIB
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« Reply #69 on: October 23, 2007, 09:26:02 AM » |
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You can't find a single ACCURATE quote that says he said that. Depends where you look for accuracy. Howver, when he appeared at Columbia? University recently, he was asked to refute it. He did not. He was asked three times to qualify what he said. He completely ignored it. perhaps he thinks the issue will go away; just like Iran's gays?On the contrary Link |
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Parky
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« Reply #70 on: October 23, 2007, 11:31:58 AM » |
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It's intersting that "I'madinnerjacket" has been doing a lecture tour of the U.S.....I wonder if we're ever likely to see Dubya in Tehran?
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TPIB
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« Reply #71 on: October 23, 2007, 11:40:06 AM » |
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It's intersting that "I'madinnerjacket" has been doing a lecture tour of the U.S.....I wonder if we're ever likely to see Dubya in Tehran?
Possibly, visiting a tank division and declaring premature victory (again) |
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Parky
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« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2007, 11:43:37 AM » |
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It's intersting that "I'madinnerjacket" has been doing a lecture tour of the U.S.....I wonder if we're ever likely to see Dubya in Tehran?
Possibly, visiting a tank division and declaring premature victory (again) Cheney talked Bush out of declaring victory onboard that aircrarft carried, he re-wrote the speech so Bush only went as far as saying it was the end of major hostilities or summat. Iraq was primarily Rumsfeld's failure and he's been put out to pasture. The biggest mistake they made in Iraq was refusing to use the Baath Party set up and people with skills in the ministries. Overnight they had another half a million or so people who joined the insurgency cause they were out of a job. |
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Rob W
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« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 07:31:15 AM » |
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The Iranians haven't invaded anyone for centuries - the Yanks and the Israelis on the other hand............
And Parky - the Ba'ath aren't exactly the sort of people (see Syria) you want runnign owt
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The rapturous, wild & ineffable pleasure of drinking at someone else's expense
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Parky
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« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 10:50:46 AM » |
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The Iranians haven't invaded anyone for centuries - the Yanks and the Israelis on the other hand............
And Parky - the Ba'ath aren't exactly the sort of people (see Syria) you want runnign owt
....soemtimes needs must dear fellow.. Jay Garner Rumsfelds main man in Eyerak: "Three terrible mistakes", Garner said to Rumsfeld laying out the three things he'd left out in his memo to the president, he cited the De-Bathification, getting rid of the army (who were willing to co-operate for $20 a month) and summarily dumping the original Iraqi leadership group (who were managing expectations with the people)." von State of Denial. |
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