NUFC Forum

It was mentioned on here the other day (by mackem killer i think) and it is mentioned in the journal today, not much like, just saying that ilan are reported to have renewed their interest.

i would get our money back and get rid personally

And replace him with who? If he hasn't found his form by Jan we should consider it.

Upson or Distain off the top of my head, O'Brien is playing better than him at the minute. And I don't think he played that well last season either before anyone mentions short memories.

we dont spend 8 million on a player to sell a few months later,we can be like fenerbahce if this is the case and we could just put him up for about 15 million and no-one will come near..why sell boumsong?he will find his feet,even if its next season i don't care but if we sold him to milan,come a years time he will be one of the best in the world you can bank on that cos thats our luck!

We'd need a bloody good replacement first! But IF one can be found and he is still out of form/unhappy at NUF we should look to get our money back. Personally i think he's a bloody great defender though who's just going through a bad spell. He transformed our defence last season and he could get back to his brilliant best given time!

well i think that goes without saying, we couldnt exactly sell him and replace him now could we, a little thing called the transfer window would stop that

He's not "brilliant", but he CAN be pretty decent.

We'll never get back what we paid, if we sell him, cos he was never worth anything like that in the first place. He's one of my preferred starters at the moment, solely because Bramble is nowhere near as good as people would liek him to be, and Boumsong and Taylor talked last season, which is a rarity for NUFC, but a basic requirement of a funcitonal defence.

Was our defence that good last year? No, so how was it transformed? Also, if it takes until next season for him to 'come good' isn't a season and a half quite a long time for an £8million defender to find his feet? Also, I don't see where he's going to suddenly develop the ability to head a ball and that's a comment based on all his performances so far, not his misplaced header against Wigan from which they nearly scored.

Unless we have a replacement lined up, selling him would be stupid.  I say that we should keep him, wait and see if the next manager fancies him as a player.

Jesus, we haven't even got two pedigree centre backs and we are talking about selling our player with most pedigree, its all very well talking about replacements, what happened to the position that Boumsong needed a world class partner?

Same old, same old, sell our only expereinced centre half, get another one in, but never actually add to the quality of our defensive line, merely keep pur heads above water so to speak.

More to the point, lets keep Boumsong,  and look to be getting at least two more good defenders!

He'll come good, mark my words. Everyone was raving about him up until this season. He was excellent against Arsenal on the opening day, very good against West Ham and then he had a mare against Man Utd and hasn't really picked up from there but he'll come good.

For Boumsong read anyone of our players really, Taylor included who has had a few bad games too. No-one with the exception of Parker and Emre (when he's played) and maybe Shay, has stood out.

So it's not just Boumsong.

1-1 exchange for nesta or sheva? I dun mind.

Spot on.

What we need to do is get a settled back 4 and play them together as much as possible.

Defences should work as a unit and if you keep changing them all the time they will never develop the understanding they need.

Our back 5 should be

                            Given

Taylor        Bramble        Boum    Bridge

With the following midfield

Solano        Parker          Emre      Zoggy

Up front

                  Owen          Luque

It could all be in place in Jan !!!

I'd switch Taylor to right-back. I think we'd be stronger with Baba-Bramble-Boum-Taylor than with Baba-Taylor-Boum-Carr.

You see i know the crack. Anyone want saturdays lottery numbers?  :tongue3:

Sounds like just hear say to me.

Why won't people realize is Milan want one of our centre backs he can't be as bad as people say he is.

Milan bought Andreas Andersson.

What is your point? They also bought Jon dahl Tommason who everyone thought was "Crap".

I'm just saying that just because a big club is linked with someone, doesn't mean they're very good. (and if you read my posts, I actually think Boumsong is a good defender). Didier Zokora has been linked with Man U for £10m from St-Etienne. I saw him for 5 months last year on a regular basis when I was living there, and he's a poor man's Amdy Faye.

listen, boumsong will never be the top cb we need, not only did his header against wigan nearly land us in trouble, but take a good look at the goal we conceded there, he got so far up the attackers arse , and was left for dead, top class defenders dont do that, well not as often as our clown does, if milan come in for him and we get our dosh back get rid, so we have to look for another, as long as souness doesnt go back to rangers and sign another plank just to help fill the coffers of the skint scots.

The only reason he was out of position was because Scott Parker gave the ball away with a crap square pass that gave them the ball.

Milan will go for someone better. Theyve been linked heavily with Luisao, Alex and Gallas, all of whom are much better than Boumsong.

If we could get good money for Boumsong i would let him go. There probably isn't a lot of truth in this but if there is then Milan will know we would not let him go on the cheap.  Hes good, but hes not great.

I'm inclined to agree with HTT about Boumsong, I believe he will come good.

Reason being he has all the physical attributes needed to be top center back, pace, power, size etc.

He's very vocal on the pitch also which is great and something I beleive had much to do with Bramble showing some form at the end of last season.

Problem with Boumsong is he lacks some fundamentals, which leads to the lapses that naturally lead people to question him. Almost all of what he does wrong can be eliminated with good coaching. That's why the likes of Milan are interested. They see a guy with all the natural attributes needed to be a world class center back, and if they bought him they'd turn him into one. We've seen him keep Thierry Henry quiet on a couple of occasions, something very few are capable of, and something your average center back can't do, no matter how well prepared they are.

Should Boumsong fail here it will be due to poor coaching. He's still very young, and I think he's got a bright future.

He's not that young.

We should not sell boum imo, he is a good defender who is out of form, he will come good imo top guy and a good defender :)

He's quite young for a defender. 25 I think? Not 100% sure.

Defenders are in their peak between 26-32 IMO, when they've got enough experience to cut out mistakes, and before they've lost any significant amount of pace.

Truth be told, Thierry Henry has never troubled us like he has done other teams, with or without Boumsong in our side. Normally its movement from Arsenal's midfield that has torn us apart on the odd occasion.

Totally agree with everything else youve said though. Boumsong's major flaws at the moment seem to be:

1) awful judgement of the ball's flight when in the air
2) a lack of balance, constantly falling over or slipping
3) easily getting pulled out of position in situations where there is little to no danger

All of those should be dealt with by the manager and coaching staff. Pump long balls towards him in training vs whoevers decent in the air (Shearer?), look into his studs or make him do yoga or something to correct his balance, and tell him to stay in position, etc etc. Most likely Souness hasnt even spoken to Boumsong about his problems, let alone tried to do anything about it.

£7m is what i've heard, so less than what we paid, no point really.

I'd swap him for Woodgate since Taylor can now cover for Woody when he's injured.

Woody wants to come back to the EPL and would most likely want to come back here.

Let Moore go for free, and get a better class in, one in which we can use, either young and full of potential, or old and experienced, but keep is sub £2-3m, Helgura would be ideal.

Woody, Helgura, Bramble & Taylor to choose from.

Well rumours say we are going for £6.5m woody, and helguara is going for £1m, so £7.5m boomsong the other way makes sense, Moore released.

Even more of a bonus, no transfer fee involved. Get Bridge in on loan 9if that rumours true) and we've finally a defense that we don't have to worry about, with Carr & Babayaro as back-up, which is what they should be at a club this size.

What people seem to be forgetting here is Bramble rarely plays well when Boumsong is'nt beside him :? :(

Bramble turned the corner by himself.

A much more intelligent, composed, better quality Woodgate would be even better alongside Bramble than boumsong.

Taylor could learn a lot from Woody, he learns nothing from Boumsong apart from how to fall over and make silly mistakes.

Bramble has his own strengths and plays his own game, he played better alongside Boumsong when he arrived as he feared for his place. Now Bramble knows he can do the job and will do so whoever he is partnered with.

I hope you are right about Bramble Toon's Taylor, personnaly i am unsure, has played great of late but those mistakes of the past keep creeping into my mind :?

And they will. I never quite forgave Peacock & Barton for their mistakes in the first couple of seasons they were there. I feel Bramble might be the same for some people.

In the end of the day, his mistakes are few and far betweem now. And when he does drop a clanger, he isn't getting punished by letting a goal in. He was very unlucky when you think of it. Everytime he made a mistake, it became a goal, how unlucky is that?

He has made mistakes since he's been on-form, and we've all gone 'shhhhhiiiiittttt' but then he's either recovered, someones helped him, Shay's saved, or the stiker fluffs up. So a bit of luck and those mistake arnt even remembered.

He's deffo had a rocket up his arse by Souness, bobby was way too nice to him, and now he is fighting. He's lost weight, he's become stronger, more focused, and even if he still makes a mistake, he now has more chance of putting it right than he did a season or so ago..

Wouldn't sell him yet, unless we were making a profit.

IMHO Boumsong is a very Capable Defender, We should'nt judge him on his last 3-4 games but on all the games he has been here, Rio is having a bad time for Manu at the moment, I dont think they'll sell him because they know he is quality and will come good.

Boumsong had a better game on Saturday, Shakey at first but after that Camara didnt get much past Boumsong, We should'nt be dissing him but trying to help him through this bad patch. I have no doubt that as soon as Boumsong has 1-2 good games under his belt he'll be back to his best, If AC Milan want him they aint gonna get him cheap because they would be buying a good young Defender

Spot on keep him!!

I dont think the different Midfield every week has helped him, Whats gonna happen WHEN Owen has a goal drought? Are the fans gonna want him out?

People are just too quick to jump on a players back when they have a bad spell! A lot of toon fans seem like vultures just circling around the team waiting for someone to have a bad game and BANG! thats it, said player is sh*t, a waste of space and should be sold for whatever we can get for him!

Boumsong IS a good defender, he probably is the fastest (if not one of them) players in the premiership, he is very intelligent and a talker. All he needs is a little bit of confidence which i think a good game Sunday will give him and we will start looking a look more concrete at the back.

When we played Arsenal back in Jan, Its was Boumsongs first time against Arsenal for us and the commentator said he could believe how fast Boumsong was, Boumsong kept up with Henry and TBH the Commentator sounded like he was shocked

I thought boumsong was terrific last season, the kind of CB we've been missing for so long. He's had a couple of bad games this time and now people are on his back; ridiculous. The fact is most of the team's been playing shite this season, the performance against wigan was honestly quite disgraceful. Apart from given, parker and n'zogbia, noone's played well so i dont see why boumsong is under so much pressure.

He's made mistakes, most players do and they recover. He will too; he's got the quality.

What i also like about Boumsong is the fact he aint Injured often (Touch Wood), Bramble is turning out to be quite injury prone.

Didier Zokora has been linked with Man U for £10m from St-Etienne. I saw him for 5 months last year on a regular basis when I was living there, and he's a poor man's Amdy Faye.

Poor mans Amdy Faye?  Poor kid must be a netball player or something. 

Although I believe Boumsong will sort himself out eventually and establish himself as a top class centreback in the Prem, I disagree that the aspects surrounding his poor form is something purely temporary and recent. The same criticisms being made at this moment in time were the same ones being aired last season, but to a much lesser degree.

For example, take the issue with slipping. His lack of balance, if I remember correctly, cost us the first goal against ManU in the FA Cup semis last year, though that was the only time his slipping truly resulted in anything. It was noticeable in a few other games, though nothing happened, hence people didnt really pay much attention to it. This season however, hes started off like Bambi on ice, and opposition players seemed to have picked up on this, hence it becoming far more noticeable - eg Fulham's goal.

Last season he was also tearing out of the defece, charging after any ball in his vicinity or running a dozen or so yards out of position when there is little danger - hes been doing the same thing this season, with the difference that its cost a goal or two so far (), and hence again the criticisms are louder.

His inability to deal with balls in the air, or hesitancy to do so, was first apparent last season on his debut - think it was against Yeading. Rest of the season, the signs were there that he was not very comfortable nor dominant in the air, though it didnt blatantly cost us a goal (I say blatantly, because he looked to be rather suspect for Scholes' headed goal in the FA Cup semi, though it was hard to blame him). This season yet again a weakness which wasnt overly highlighted the previous year has been made so by said weakness costing us a goal - ie Rooney being put though on goal because of Boumsong failing to deal with a long ball from the opposition keeper, letting it bounce and being unaware of the danger, etc.

So I disagree that last season he was this perfect clone of Woody. He definately had the same weaknesses, but because they werent exposed to the extent that they are now due to his low confidence.

Bit hypocritical here don't you think? You've admitted yourself you were critical of Barton, Peacock & Bramble in their first year or so here but stuck by them, why can't you do the same for Boumsong? Boumsong in his first 10 months here was 10x better than what Bramble, Peacock & Barton were in the same period.

If real can do it why cant we?



:P

I agree he does slip alot but at the same time i thought in that particular game he was the only thing stopping them from scoring even more.

good post nut, you've made a very good comment there  blueyes.gif

It's vindictive of today's support that Boumsong is getting the stick he is - a couple of good games and he'll be back to the saviour he was last season and we all know it. We are more fickle than Spurs fans.

How can anyone single out Boumsong when the team as a whole has been shocking for 18 months or more? We finished 14th last season, teams that finish 14 have poor defences as we have. We have good individuals, but we still let in goals - that's down to coaching I'm afraid.

Boumsong has all the attributes and him going walkabouts is down to organisation - there is none. Taylor doesn't get slagged yet he goes walkabouts too. If Boumsong was a Geordie, it would be "poor lad's playing with shite that's why he's not playing well" or something like that.

Yes he does have his flaws but by god does every player not have a weakness or two? Of course they do, regardless of how much they cost or how good they are.

It shows a complete lack of understanding of the game in my opinion because when I look at a lot of our players I see good players, I see players I would love to work with if I was a manager because I could work with them, I don't see Boumsong as this hapless, no-hoper that some are now calling him.

I do see bad coaching, poor organisation and more than odd tactics and that's why he and others are playing poor. Like I said, put him in Arsenal's side, Liverpool's or Man Utd's and he'd excell.

Hey, Boumsong's not playing well. Wake up, none of them are FFS.

We as a team are playing crap and have done for 18 months.

His only weaknesses are judgement of ball in flight - good coaching can eradicate that easily.

Then there is his unbalance as touched on, that's not a real weakness though, that's a pitch/stud thing as he isn't the only NUFC player to slip in matches. But people don't see that...

Then there is his walkabouts, sorry but that is down to coaching and organisation. Boumsong and Taylor have to come out of position to bail out others, they take responsibility and that isn't a weakness it's just being misspent. If a centre-half is over at left-back making tackles, then your shape has gone and who is reponsible for shaping a team?

The coaches/manager.

Boumsong is lightning quick, aggressive, good touch, comfortable on the ball, athletic, good in the tackle, communicates (it was he that pushed the defence up from a deep defensive position by yelling at his team-mates, not those on the touchline paid to manage and coach the team).

So he's not the greatest in the air... well cut the ****ing crosses out then. When has Carr or Babayaro cut out a cross? They don't, they just back off and hope Shay catches it, the defence clear it or an opposing player doesn't connect.

I watch Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd and Chelsea and they rarely get punished by crosses, ferdinand is piss poor in the air but that weakness is never exposed because his full-backs rarely let  a cross come in, that's why Man Utd often concede corners or lots of throw-ins because their fullback's cut out crosses and deflect them out.

Arsenal are the same. Remember on the opening day? We got into good wide positions but we just didn't get our crosses in, we did win a few corners though. But Arsenal know how to defend corners so even if we did cut out crosses we don't know how to deal with set-pieces.

How many goals have we conceded from throw-ins? Arsenal's second came from a throw in on the opening day, didn't Fulham's and Bolton's?

We are also piss poor from corners, at marking. That is down to coaching and organisation.

Then there is our midfield, Parker aside, they just don't protect that back-four. Betis are a good side, yet they never tested Chelsea the other night, they just couldn't get to Chelsea's back-four.

With us it's often a walk through - Wigan's goal? Taylor was left flat-footed. In coaching, if the last man is left flat-footed, i.e. isolated and stretched, then the shape, organisation and discipline of the side has broken down and that is down to coaching.

Boumsong has only had a handful of poor games. He's often a colosus in defence, he's saved our arses many a time with last ditch tackles and superb blocks. Remember in the FA Cup against Spurs and Chelsea? He was awesome.

Against Wigan he cleanly won 4 tackles against Camara, as the last man if you like. But those things go unoticed, people just see the back-header which by the way was a result of a shocking cross-field ball pelted in at pace, it just had to flick of a hair strand to go goalwards never mind Boumsong's full connection, at least he took responsibility to cut out percieved danger or to try to cut it out... unlike others. Carr just stopped, Roberts got through and cracked the outside of the post.

He's a cracking player, just what we need in the modern game, a quick, powerful, athletic centre-half. We already have the warrior, the no nonsense centre-back in Taylor - that should develop into a great partnership but it isn't.

That's down to coaching.

HTT do you a always have a 1000 word reply? :lol: :lol:

anyway...

agree with evry word of it, boum is just out of ofrm and will be back to th eplayer we need, soon. :)

So basically the faults of an £8million French International defender, such as a lack of ability to head the ball properly can be eradicated by coaching? I've heard it all now.

agree with every word apart from the bit about boumsong being good in the tackle.

Or aggressive.

Of course it can, why can't it? It's absurd to think otherwise.

Are you saying coaching can not improve players and their flaws?

Give me a week with Boumsong and I'd improve his heading.

What he needs is a wall, with lots of markings and he needs to practice day in day out heading a ball against these markings from close in, to far back to heading from angles. The object of this is to coach direction, accuracy and deftness.

A wall also focuses the mind, it's a physiological thing because it's a barrier and you want to break that barrier down, it's a punch bag in effect.

You don't need to hammer a ball with your head, connect with it right and it will fly like a rocket if that is what you want anyway. Boumsong can clear a ball, he just isn't comfortable with a ball on his head, there is no direction, accuracy or when he just needs to deftly nock it into space, it goes all over the place.

Coaching will eradicate that easily.

So, what's your point?

BTW players who are poor on their right or left or vice versa, start kicking a ball against a wall with your good foot but control the rebound with your poor foot and strike the wall with your poor foot once controlled, just do that for a few weeks and you will get balance, strength and accuracy with your weak foot. I was piss poor on my left, I did air shots when I tried to kick with my left, now it's stronger than my right.

For volleys do kick-ups and volley the ball without being set up, you'll get a greater understanding of movement and timing than from having balls crossed in to you. Do your own donkey work if you like.

For all technical skills, which heading is, you need to work by yourself to be 100% focused because it's all about repetition. It's about conditioning yourself to the point where, because of repetition, it becomes a natural thing. Now when the ball comes to me, I don't even think about controling it with my left and then passing.

Also. the good thing about the wall thing is that it's not disciplined, each ball that bounces back to you is different and unredictable so that improves your movement and positioning as well as timing and judgement so you can catch it right. In the actual game, it is like that. Each ball played in will be different and and unpredictable.

If you have a player throwing the ball to you, it's predicatble and that player with the ball will try and get the ball to you, in football the player on the ball tries to cut you out.

Working in groups of two on head tennis then groups of 6 in a circle is also very static and  of no real use in my opinion. Honestly, if you want to improve your heading or poor foot, follow the wall method, you'll see the results after a day.

A year of doing it, every day, and your poor foot will become your best foot and your heading will be immense. Not everyon is naturally good at something, you can coach and learn to improve on technique, quite easily in fact.

That's what pisses me off about Shola's poor heading and Boumsong's poor heading ability. It's easy to improve, just takes time, focus and a good wall ;)

boumsong is good. not terry-good, or woodgate-good, but more like distin-good, or king-good. he'll do the job. there are so many other areas that i'd be more worried about than boumsong. yes, he cost £8m, but dont evaluate him based on that. its not his fault. yes, he's made some mistakes this season but i think he'll get over it.
i find it funny that some people, who think boumsong is crap after couple of mistakes, are defending bramble who has a history of blunders that not many CB in the league can match.

My point is it's mainly down to ability rather than coaching. Are you saying we could all be world beaters with practice? Also, are you saying that Boumsong hasn't been coached properly during his career? Laughable, especially the bit in bold.

No, that's just stupid. You can't teach people to read the game well, to understand the basics of the game etc., the things that make professional footballers but you can improve every aspect of a players game with the right coaching, it goes without saying. Regardless of level and I really mean that.

If I, who can't play for toffee, can improve my left foot to decent enough Sunday League standard, then Boumsong, a professional, international footballer, can improve his heading, quite easily.

He has the power, he has the basics otherwise he would never have made the grade, he can head, he just has no accuracy, timing or direction. He just sticks his head out and hopes for the best - we can all do that. Not all of us can play football though, he can, but I could head the ball better than he can because I played headers and volleys every day and night for years on end.

The trouble is that these days players don't look to improve, or managers fail to spot weaknesses or encourage players to improve. Not in this country anyway.

What you are saying is that basically, Boumsong is beyond help? Well that's just absurd.

The very idea of coaching is to have something to work with, I could understand if there was nothing to work with, but there is - he's an 8m international centre-half.

Of course it's a two way thing, the player has to want to improve, but for me it's down to the coaching and management to spot, and then encourage. Boumsong probably thinks he's great in the air and who could blame him.

And yes, Boumsong has been coached properly, mainly as a youth player I'd imagine. Once he made the grade, he was most likely left to his own devices and to "get on with it".

The thing is, he's a good player who can become a very good player, it is worth working with him and spending some time on him. For those where there really is no hope, ala an Andy O'Brien, who will always be average, you get them to play to their strengths. With the better players, you get them to improve their weakenesses so that they become all-round top-class players in all areas of their game.

Boumsong's weakness is heading, speaking from a technique point of view. So get to work on him and with him to improve that aspect of his game. It can be done, it should be done. Everyone can improve regardless of what level they are at, even if it's 10-20% it's a difference.

PS The bit in bold, not meant to be taken literally Alex, but then you know that ;)

So, his walkabouts are down to a lack of/poor coaching but you can't teach a player to read the game? Ok then.

Reading the game relates to a player's natural instinct to spot what his opposition/teammate has in mind and react to it before/just as it happens, giving him a headstart.

Walkabout refers to lack of concentration, or uncertainty as to what position he should be taking up, something a good coaching would teach him.

If he goes 'walkabout' he is out of position (surely this is what it refers to, i.e. his position on the pitch). If he is prone to this, he isn't very good at reading the game in my view as positional awareness is crucial to your ability to read the game.

Correct. Keep up Alex.

Walkabouts are due to poor organisation and shape which stems right back to the training pitch, hence poor coaching, not due to poor reading of game.

Boumsong in effect is actually doing his job when he goes walkabouts, what you will notice is that no-one goes in to fill the hole he's just left. Last week, Elliott did a few times which gave us cover but more often than not, there just isn't anyone filling in. That's why you'll see Taylor screaming at the full-backs to tuck in and for the central midfield to get closer.

But Boumsong shouldn't feel the need to take over, to take the responsibility of defending outside of his 'zone' if the organisation and shape of the side was much better. And don't deny we aren't organised as a side because we aren't. Why the hell was N'Zogbia over at right-back once or twice in the Wigan match helping out Carr?

When there is no 'team', the leaders will step out and take control or responsibility.

It's like live TV, when someone forgets their lines, another will adlib, that's what Boumsong and Taylor are doing - jumping in to help out their team-mates.

It's not even a flaw or a weakness, it's a break down in organisation and shape.

Is Boumsong responsible for that, or Souness and his coaches?

It's pretty simple really from where I sit.

BTW Faye often fills in at centre-half when playing if Taylor or Boumsong go walkabouts, that often goes unoticed. That's good play, good reading of the game, but really if a player gets dragged out of position, the set-up is all wrong. Do you see Terry over at right-back or in central midfield pressing someone? No, you see Wright-Phillips or the right-back down that side defending. You see Makalele or Lampard in midfield pressing. Terry stays back and mops up any danger that does penetrate the Chelsea system. Or if he has to, in extreme last ditch scenarios, only then will you see him breach his own defensive zone to bail out others who have been got at.

It's coaching man, and you know it Alex.

Rio Ferdinand is worth 30m apparently he has more than a few flaws. For that matter no one is perfect, but one thing you have to remeber no-one is the finished article at 25!

HTT great post once more. The word fickle probably should have been used a few more times though.

Shack has got it spot on. There is a difference, a massive one, between reading the game, a natural instinct hence it can't be taught and vacating a position.

Beckham for England keeps coming infield, that's down to organisation, he feels he has to, to get on the ball, he's playing as an individual, outside of the boundries of a team and it's shape. He's doing that because Gerrard isn't getting on the ball, the reason he isn't getting on the ball is because he's worried about protecting the back-four, the reason he's worried about protecting the back-four is because the back-four don't know what they are doing, the reason they don't know what they are doing is because the managers and coaches don't.

It's a nock on effect and stems all the way to the training pitch.

George Graham worked with his whole defence separately, they in effect become onfield coaches where they would hold the shape of the side together, keep it compact and organised. I remember Wenger saying that he didn't have to do anything with the back-four, they were so well drilled, organised and disciplined, he was amazed. He then looked at their weaknesses which was passing and ball rettention and got to work on that, safe in the knowledge his defence could defend. The result? An awesome back-four that could defend and play football.

You're taking the easy way out Alex, the "he's just crap and hopeless" line. No he isn't, any fool who says so are talking absolute crap. There is no such thing as a crap footballer at this level, just poorly coached ones and those that are average and always will be due to things that can't be taught, like sniffing out chances, like being in the right space at the right time, like reading the game, can still shine in a team despite their average ability, if that team plays as a team, is compact, organised and has a shape. A teacm coached right.

I give you Bolton, Leicester under O'Neill, Everton last season, our defence under Sir Bobby in 2003-04 and many other examples.

The guys a french international [christ knows how] and your saying you have to coach him to head a ball, 8m quid and you have to teach him to heed a ball, what planet are you on.

It's called a weakness. He can obviously head the ball, he could just stand to do it a little better.

You pay the 8m for the other qualities he has, knowing you can teach him to be a better headerer of the ball.

I've never said he's hopeless and crap, although I don't particularly rate him. In any case, a player's positional sense and in particular a centre half's postional sense is not in my view massively different to his ability to read the game. How on earth can you read the well game as a central defender if your positional sense is flawed? It's almost as daft as the person who said at 25 a player isn't the finished article or your assertion that he should be throwing the ball at a wall to practice his heading.

So, your saying Souness knew he was shit in the air but thought he'd be able to improve him? This gets better by the minute?

alex, didnt we have words about boumsong some while ago, or was it a different subject

OK, name a perfect defender that we could reasonably hope to attract.

I'd advocate buying perfect players too, but they don't exist.

He's not "shit" in the air either, he's just not great. He would get better, with proper coaching.

I think we 'had words' (if you mean disagree) but not about Boumsong, I thought your criticism of him was a bit harsh but I agreed with some of your misgivings iirc. Not least the fact he was poor in the air. It's ok though, he's going to spend the next 6 months heading a caser off an end terrace until he becomes Tony Adams ;)

Changing the subject to be honest. He may have been the best we could get at the time, maybe not. That doesn't mean his weaknesses are going to be ironed out through coaching. To use your method of arguing, name a few defenders who (after the age of 25) have got a lot better at heading the ball down to better coaching. And, imo he is shit in the air for a centre half.

This season Boumsong hasn't looked like a player who needs a bit of coaching, he looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights.

You might think he's crap or just out of form but what is not in doubt is that at the moment, he's an absolute liability.

Boumsong will be staying here, theres no doubt about that, nobody would want him with the way he is playing at the moment. I dont he is wanted by another prem team let alone the giants of AC Milan. I hope he recovers his form and gains his confidence. I think if he raises himself for the Mackems game and we win, it will give him a huge boost. I think he has been missing Bramble a bit as they played well together.

Well, in my opinion, and coaches like George Graham would agree with me, positional sense can be coached and is different to natural instinct which is reading the game. Reading the game involves decision making, often split second - it's you against the world in that sense. It's down to your wits and your wits only.

Positional sense isn't the same as reading the game, obviously you will have to read the game in order to get a sense of positional sense but being able to read the game doesn't mean you will be capable of good positional sense and vice versa.

Taylor can read the game very well but his positional sense leaves a little to be desired. You would think, he wouldn't ever be out of position given his good reading of the game, wouldn't you?

So why does he get dragged out of position, just as much as Boumsong? Because as a team, we have no shape, organisation or discipline so he has to.

If for example, he never vacated his position at any time, he'd not be doing his job - he has to drag himself out of position to cover alien areas because we keep getting breached in, for example, the full-back slots. At least he is attempting to take responsibility, attempting to do something about it, i.e. taking risks. He has to.

Your whole argument Alex is that Boumsong can't be taught to be better in the air or shouldn't need taught, that it is he that is soley responsible for his position, is that right?

Well you're wrong, and that's not me saying that, that's George Graham saying that. Read his book, listen to him when he analyses defensive situations. Last week he said our defence, players like Boumsong, need worked on in training. He rates Bramble and always says he too needs worked on, again what does he mean by that? Coaching, that's what. I imagine he'd love to get his hands on players who as individuals, would get in to most sides outside of the top 3. Given, Carr, Bramble, Boumsong, Taylor and yes, even Babayaro are all fine players in one way or another, put them together and they look and play crap to average however.

That's down to coaching.

Wullie, I agree, but I'd say everyone of our players are a liability at the moment or have the potential to be a liability, so it's not just Boumsong.

Taylor is a liability, often a red card waiting to happen but he's making rash challenges because often, he has no choice but to because the set-up of the team, i.e. the shape, structure, organisation and discipline, well it's all over the place which is basically what I've been saying all along. Is it any wonder that those in the team, are also all over the place?

Alex, I don't know what point you are trying to make or what it is you are saying.

I will say this though; Boumsong's heading ability can be imrpoved greatly with coaching. Newcastle's defence can be improved greatly with coaching. Average players can shine greatly with coaching.

Do you agree or disagree?

It doesn't even need said, it stands to reason in my opinion and I know nothing. But I know enough to know that Boumsong is not a crap player or average, he's a very good player. I also know we as a team have no organisation or shape, especially when defending and I also know that as a team and as individuals, we are grossly under performing.

And it all stretches back to the training field.

Pity, really, that it's not possible to hire George Graham simply to coach the defence.

Yes I disagree that his heading ability can be greatly improved with coaching given he's a 25 year old French international who should be near his peak and that he will have been training professionally for last 9 years or so. As for positional sense / ability to read the game, let's agree to disagree on the interpretation of that one. I agree with Wullie too, Boumsong is playing shite at the minute.

Couldn't Souness just read his book though or better still, just employ HTT :tongue3:

but much saying he is an absolute liability. his backward header was a liability, but for the rest of the game, while not looking absolutely comfortable to confident, he was effective against camara.

Boumsong is playing shite, but so are the rest with the exception of Shay, Parker and Emre when fit and possibly Owen simply because he's having to scrap with giants just to see the stiching on the ball. Other than those lot, they are all playing shite to average to really not good enough.

I mean if they weren't, we wouldn't be in the position we are would we, so it's a bit insular to blame it all on or highlight one player, in my opinion.

As for Boumsong's age, I strongly disagree. Tondy Adams said he didn't reach his peak until 30. He said he was made to look twice the player he was due to Graham's coaching and those around him. Basically I think what he was saying was that had he played for anyone other than Arsenal, he wouldn't have stood out like he did. Not until Wenger came along did Adams really look the complete centre-half and by that time, drink and stuff had taken their toll on his body.

At 25 Boumsong can improve every aspect of his game, to say otherwise is ridiculous. Every player can improve, even Shearer at his peak. Henry could improve his heading a great deal and become the complete centre-forward but Wenger doesn't see it as a problem, given how Arsenal don't play that type of game and nor do France. Perhaps Boumsong has been coached all those years on a different philosophy, in fact I'd say it's a certainty.

In France they don't see heading as a vital area of the game. It's about strength, athleticism, power, technique on the ball, movement and reading the game.

Vieira was poor in the air, or at least not the greatest despite his size, Henry is piss poor in the air, you will notice Brazilians aren't the greatest either. In  fact, looking at France's team and recent players from France, most do seem poor in the air. Coincidence? Bernard wasn't great, Robert certainly wasn't, he ducked out the way of headers. Domi wasn't great, nor was Ginola despite being 6.2 or something. Goma wasn't the greatest either. Dumas was OK. Oh and Charvet at 6ft odd wasn't good in the air as well.

It's absolute tripe to suggest at 25 Boumsong couldn't improve his prowess in the air or any footballer for that matter. Adams improved his passing at the ripe old age of 30 and passing is far more tougher an art foprm to master than sticking your neck out and adding a bit direction to a header.

I said greatly improve as did you previously. I thought highlighting may have been enough. I'll use a bigger font next time  bluelaugh.gif

Oh, and Michael Owen, playing football since he was 4, had no left foot until he started practicing with it at the age of 19 after Houllier pointed out to him that he would have to, and now, he can finish, pass and hold the ball up using his left foot. So despite all those years where he couldn't use his left foot, in just a few years he learned how to.

15 years without a left foot, one gained in a few short years.

Case closed.

Alex, if we can get you to debate an issue using more than smilies, and a few lines, we can get Boumsong to head the ball properly ;)

And stop sidestepping my points.

Well, for one thing learning things at 19 is a canny bit easier than when you are 25. And since you're doing the, frankly pathetic, case closed thing, I'll return to this:
Can you explain how a central defender's positional sense isn't crucial to his reading of the game? (Seeing as according to you the two are vastly different) If you take someone like Bobby Moore, who read the game like a book, the reason he was able to do this so well IS BECAUSE HE WAS IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME. Now, if being in the right place at the right time isn't positional sense, what is?

You don't like it when one or two people don't say 'great post HTT' do you?

How is it easier to learn something at 19 than it is at 25? That just doesn't make sense.

And stop getting touchy man, it was a light hearted comment.

just a thought, isn't it more likely that it's neither entirely the players fault nor entirely the coaches fault?

it's my opinion that Boumsong looked like a colossus in the scottish league and has now been shown to be a decidely average centerback. He wouldn't seem so poor if those coaching him drew the best from him. But there has to be something there to start with.

I also think it's improtant (specifically in defence) to have the right players around you. We haven't had a stable back four all season, injuries have plagued the team. If we could get a run of 4-5 games without change at the back against a varied opposition, we'd start to see the defense gell. Now we're fortunate to have a quality central midfield who seem entirely capable of winning and using the ball well. Parker is by far the most efficient footballer we've had in the centre for a long time. He can do the same job as Makele, this protection in front of a consistent back line will improve our goals against record tenfold.

I still don't think our fullbacks are good enough, Carr isn't the player he once was, and Babayaro is Bernard-Lite and I still think we need three centre halves where we don't flinch at their name on the teamsheet.

I've no confidence in Boumsong and if I don't... how can they?

better coaches get us a better Boumsong, but is that better Boumsong good enough?

So you don't think players are relatively less developed and still learning at 19 compared to 25? Are you being serious? Also, nice bit of sidestepping :razz:

If anything, while still developing mentally and physically, it would be harder to develop other areas of ones game than at an age where you can concentrate fully and are already developed in a physicall and mental way for example - such as 24-25.

Zinedine Zidane did not show the world what type of player he would become until he was in his mid 20s. Basically he didn't start developing other aspects of his game until much later in his career. Ronaldinho since his move to Barca has improved greatly as well. At PSG he was always a circus act, a bag of tricks and couldn't make the first-team of Brazil. Now, he starts regardless and is thought of as the best player in the world.

Not many would have predicted that while those two were failing to consistently shine in France.

Cantona was the same. Jamie Carragher has improved a lot in the last 2 years in every way as well, ask Liverpool fans. At one time he was a squad player at best, now the first name on the team-sheet.

His whole game has improved significantly, so why can't Boumsong's and indeed other players?

Look at Kevin Phillips, Ian Wright and Sir Les Ferdinand. Ian Wright at 22 was playing Non-League football!

Age is an excuse Alex and a poor one at that. If age was a learning restriction then the game of football has made fools of everyone. There is no such thing as the finished article at 20 or even 25. Every player regardless of age or ability can improve in every way imaginable.

I have given you many legitimate examples that prove players can improve via coaching, regardless of age or ability.

As for your question, you've answered it yourself really and if you re-read through my posts, you will see I have also answered as has Shak. You may not agree, in fact you don't, but I've answered it.

Remember your "agree to disgagree that reading the game is different to positional sense" comment?

I will agree to disagree because obviously it's down to interpretation and it's a fine line for sure, but I strongly disagree with you that Boumsong nor any other for that matter, can not greatly improve something as basic as heading because you are plainly wrong.

But I'm not here to sit and argue the toss with you over the finer merits of this, what I am saying is basically this; Boumsong is not crap and can improve every aspect of his game with the right coaching.

And I think I have proved this with many examples as already posted.

PS My "rest my case" and you joining in a debate comments were not digs or anything, just harmless throw away comments so don't take them as anything other than what they are - nothing.
thumbup.gif

Great post HTT  :tongue3:

no offence htt, but can you not edit your posts down a bit?

i'd like to read your arguments but 20+ pars per post is a bit excessive, no? 

I know. ;)

Anyway, that Faye... he's crap isn't he?

*puts can opener back in draw*

:tongue3:

I could do.


But no.

;)

why use one word when 50 can do?

are you Leo Tolstoy in disguise?

Indeed.

Good old Lenny Tolstoy. He did a grand job at Lokomotiv Muscovy.

just a thought, isn't it more likely that it's neither entirely the players fault nor entirely the coaches fault?

it's my opinion that Boumsong looked like a colossus in the scottish league and has now been shown to be a decidely average centerback. He wouldn't seem so poor if those coaching him drew the best from him. But there has to be something there to start with.

I also think it's improtant (specifically in defence) to have the right players around you. We haven't had a stable back four all season, injuries have plagued the team. If we could get a run of 4-5 games without change at the back against a varied opposition, we'd start to see the defense gell. Now we're fortunate to have a quality central midfield who seem entirely capable of winning and using the ball well. Parker is by far the most efficient footballer we've had in the centre for a long time. He can do the same job as Makele, this protection in front of a consistent back line will improve our goals against record tenfold.

I still don't think our fullbacks are good enough, Carr isn't the player he once was, and Babayaro is Bernard-Lite and I still think we need three centre halves where we don't flinch at their name on the teamsheet.

I've no confidence in Boumsong and if I don't... how can they?

better coaches get us a better Boumsong, but is that better Boumsong good enough?

positional discipline can be taught, but positional sense is something instinctive that cant be taught.

some players just have the knack of being at the right places at the right time, you cant coach that.

I dont know why people are so fussy about HTT's long posts.

In my opinion, he's one of the few people on here who can present their point clearly and with dignity, without slagging off other people. He doesn't get carried away and argues complete sense.

As far as im concerned, his posts are a welcome breath of fresh air.

Chelsea own Alex's registration so I can't see him being cheap.

The trouble is, as far as i can see, is when you pay 8m for a player you pretty well think to yourself we have bought more or less  the completed item/product.
Now boumsong is far from that, if he needs to be coached in his heading, he also needs to coached in other aspects of his game, which in my eyes defeats the object of paying 8m for a player.
So, it stinks to high heaven, souness has done a favour to his old club, and done no favours for us...correct me if im wrong but did we buy moore from rangers or was he without a club?

Is Berlusconi suddenly short of money?