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Will sacrifice a forward player in away games in order to get a result. Just said it now on SS1

How f****** stupid is this man?

i honestly believe he is no better than our previous 2 managers when it comes to tactics...we are still going away from home and rolling over to s*** opposition. we have the quality of players to be going to derby reading and sunderland and coming away with 3 points end of story. Any manager with an tactical know how would exploit our quality and use it to our strengths. no use having quality when we play kick and rush football thats f****** atrocious to watch (cant rem the last time i came from a match thinking we played very very well there). I think Ashley has set targets and if we dont meet them Sam will be gone just like Martin Jol at the spuds

def*****g impressing
and he says we are always good with attacking set plays mackems.gif

Admitted he played it for a point yesterday.

Impressed with what he had to say on Goals On Sunday tbh,
very honest

He played for a point and fkd it up, but he is miles better than Souness and Roeder in so many ways not just his fitness regime.
Not every manager gets their tactics right for every game no matter who it is, Sam setup for how he thought Reading would play and Reading setup for how they thought we would play.
Fact is it was there players who looked more together and ready to fight for each other, that is what served Reading so well last season and it has been what every Toon team has lacked for years now.

So far this season we have conceded goals from not helping out our fullbacks so i think Sam though Emre and Geremi would offer more fullback cover than Milner and Zoggy but that was not how it turned out with both Emre and Geremi drifting into the middle.
At least now he knows that does not work.

Seriously?

Yep,heard him say it yesterday after the game.

For the 2nd goal he says the back four are too deep, 2 players went for the same ball and the fullbacks didnt come round to cover-more drilling on the training ground needed methinks.
The strategy away is clear play ultra defensive and hope we get one chance which Owen will score pretty much the same tactics as used by Dalglish when he hoped the same thing would happen with Shearer up front it didnt we ended up losing countless games 1-0.

His negative attitude about away games and fear of getting beat must translate to the players so much. If he had an attitude of it being just the same as a home game then this would give the players much more confidence. The mentality for away games at the moment is resulting in us being beaten before we turn up. The only thing keeping the critics off sam's back is the home form.

I remember our successes under Robson during our 'glory' years (i.e. when we consistently qualified for Yoorup) were based on our successes on the road. What was it, 13 road wins the year we finished 3rd?

Hardly 'tight' 1-0 wins either, they were, we were fuckin' free-scoring on the road just as at home.

So did Bobby.  2 away wins when we came 5th.  I'm worried about winning at home, this doesn't worry.

Played for a point against Reading? What's he's going to do when we go to Old Trafford?  >:(

Pathetic attitude really. Major cock up, imo.

"Right, remember lads - keep it in single figures"

Seriously though, I'm not going to slate Sam yet until he shows he's never going to learn from mistakes like yesterday.

Exactly. 

Those of you who think the "he'll get it right" camp is trying to quash your PoV should reconsider. 

When people on here say "give him time", that is NOT equivalent in the slightest to saying that you don't have a right to be unhappy about the result.  What they are saying is that the kind of over the top railing that goes on needs to be reined in.  People wonder why others throw the label of "fickle" onto a club that's won sweet f***-all for so long?  Because of that kind of overreaction to a bad result.

One thing he should learn is Butt/Cacapa are no-no's for away games. Neither of them looked up for it against Reading or Derby.

We badly need creativity in the middle and a striker to hold it up. Here's to hoping these problems are adressed in January.

I have a lot of time for Sam though he will do well if given the chance. We sit 8th and to be honest i'd be *very* happy with that come the end of the season. 

We would've been winning 1-0 and conceded a late equalizer if it where that season.

Our problem was not holding onto our leads. We drew plenty of games that season, we didn't lose too many on the road.

This isn't the same situation.

Yesterdays result was a big disappointment but we simply have to give Allardyce and the team some time. The club has been performing poorly since Robson left and its unrealistic to expect SA to come in and turn around the stagnation in less than half a season. There'll be a lot of ups and downs but some fans seem unable to accept it.

I think this year will be a lot like O'Neill's debut season at Villa. Lay some foundations and then move the club on. If the fans are unwilling to allow a new man to come in and do this and instead demand instant success, then they'll be badly let down.

I think people are more angry with SA's approach to such games ie the sops about 0-0's etc...

I really want Sam to succeed here but his inability or unwillingness to change his "small club" mentality may prove decisive. He needs to change his ways but can he? To go and play for a draw at Reading is a disgrace to the supporters, espescially those who forked out their hard-earned and made the trip down the country and back. It's unacceptable.

The 2-1 scoreline flattered us. For a team to be consistently outplayed all over the park by inferior players does not bode well for any manager. He may fancy himself as a tough guy, but in reality he has bottled it away from home every time, and when you do that you get what you deserve - nothing.

If he plays for the draw against sunderland we will lose, and he will lose a massive amount of respect from the fans. sunderland will play for the win and we must do the same. The derby is all about regional pride and a rivalry that goes back centuries. Ruud Gullit tried to be clever by dropping Shearer and Ferguson - we lost to the mackems and 3 days later he was out of a job. I hope Allardyce is aware of what this game means to the supporters, a gutless team selection and tactics will not go down well at all.

As would I however I'm worried about what will happen when we face the big boys or teams around us. We've had a relatively easy start and we are only 8th.

DDL against Boro, Derby & Reading (considering their position) really isn't good enough.

I'm not particularly looking forward to the derby at the mo although a positive result next weekend may change that. The tramps will have identified our weakness is dealing with high long balls and will be launching everything at Jones.

It would be good to see the team set up to out-score them, as i fear that if we try and contain them we'll end up beaten.

Mr Ashley must have raised an eyebrow at that admission.  

Unacceptable comments.

It's bit early to be saying he wont change his small club mentality.

And yes we HAVE to go for the win against the Mackems.

Parky is right. It's the attitude that we have a problem with. We should only go to the top 4 LOOKING for a draw. Perhaps if we give it a go and still only get a draw then there wouldn't be a problem.

I agree. The players need to be going to places like Reading and Derby confident and positive, and putting fear into them. Reading fans must have looked at our team selection before the game and grinned. 4 central midfielders just says "please don't hurt us", and not surprisingly that's how we played. Can you imagine teams better than us, such as Man Utd or Arsenal, coming to SJP and lining up like that? We'd be pretty happy if they did, and we'd certainly fancy our chances.

Im f****** getting depressed reading this s***!Every game people change there mind abt Sam.Although we havent played the big 4 yet,top 8 is still a solid start with a game in hand on most teams!Also considering we normally play better against the big 4 im not worried!I think people need to give Sam a break,hes still trying to figure out his best team!He did f*** up yesterday though not playing Zog+picking 4 centre midfielders was stupid!Theres only 8 games gone in the season,people were told from the start it needs to be given time with all the new faces he brought in  its understandable!

Well what about his first 2 seasons.  It wasn't instant success

 :thup:

I've been worried by Allardyce from the start. He wouldn't have been my choice for a variety of reasons, not least the type of football played by Bolton and his begging for the England job, which made him appear a fool, to put it mildly.

Despite all of that and my negative attitude about him I acknowledge that so far he's done fairly well, we're on the right lines and are moving forward. Unlike Souness, he's signed some decent players. I want him to prove me wrong by getting us back up there, I've been hopinig he'll turn out to be the right man for the job.

The problem looks real though. If his crap attitude keeps up for much longer it'll start to look even more as though he's not the right man. This type of negative approach is permeating it's way through to the minds of the players, the fear of conceding a goal is going to take over soon and we'll be totally stifled. You can't consistently go away from home in this league and play for a 0-0 with the hopes of snatching a 1-0 win, it won't work.

I want to see Allardyce decide on his best XI is and then stick with it, except for players being unavailable. I don't care who the opposition is or whether we're home or away, you pick your strongest XI and that's it. I don't want to see fannying about with formations such as trying 3 at the back, 1 up front, 4-3-3 or 4 central midfielders congesting the space and playing narrow. It's a load of bollocks and if he keeps doing any of those things then for me he'll turn out to be a fuckwit similar to Souness and should go. With a new owner I think he only has this season to prove he's the right man. He better pull his finger out 'cos right now he's not doing too badly but that doesn't translate to "good enough."

Do you think Ashley/Mort will get rid of Allardyce if we aren't in Europe by the end of the season, HTL?

I know others (can only think of Baggio right now, like) think so.

Its a huge possibility.

It really depends on how we miss out, if we get pipped at the post, or suffer a huge amount of injuries then you can say he deserves another crack. But if we under perform, and the fans and board don't see any real progression throughout the season, then he'll be sacked.

But i've faith he'll get it right, sooner rather than later.

He said: "The players should have been well aware of what they needed to do by the amount of time we spent through the week saying 'this is Reading'.

"We showed them the video where West Ham won by three goals by playing on the break but we never did that.

"We just kept giving possession away and gave the opposition another chance to put the ball in our box so it was really disappointing. We ended up chasing them too much."


some times it´s not the managers fault. and why would Sam get kicked if we dont finish top 6? who should we bring in? Capello?!

:thup: :thup: :thup:

In a nutshell.

I think there's a chance they could bin him even if we qualify for Europe, tbh. If they don't think he's going to be able to take the club to the level they want then why not? If it was my money I'd want the man I think is the right man. Allardyce has to show signs he has what it takes.

I created a poll in your honour on this subject. :)

Agree with everything there. I do think we will get better but he needs to accept that he isn't a master tactician and should stop messing about with his formation and trying to be smart. The other week he had N'Zogbia on the right wing, now he's dropping him for a central midfielder, it is this trying to be clever which often backfires on managers who let the praise go to their head. Is it so difficult to play players in their correct positions and use a tried and tested formation? Robson made some mistakes but he never changed his formation, the players knew his system inside out, it was up to the other team to try and stop us. Pulling stunts like he did yesterday have cost us important points, we can't be taking these games for granted.

I remember a few times Robson tried to change his formation, he wanted to go 3 at the back for about a 6 month period and thought Aaron Hughes was the key to making it work.

He played 5-3-2 away to Chelsea in his first game didn't he when we lost 1-0?

Also that awful performance at home to Spurs he done the same when we got beat.

90% certain about the spurs game.

I'm about 80% sure he did it in Europe as well, could of even been against Barca (but that really could be wrong)

WTF is he thinking? this isnt Bolton f****** Wanderers, what kind of ambition does the man have if he wants to go to places like Reading and play for a draw when they have conceeded the most goals in the league.

To be honest, i have to agree about his attitude, i dont really like the, play for a draw attitude, it just doesnt sit right with me, on the flip side, i can handle these poor performances for the time being because of the dierection the club is going, people like Allardyce should never be compared to Roeder of Souness because  never in 3 years did th club look anywhere near like going in the right way. I personnaly can wait till next year to see what SA can do for us because of the vast improvements he's already made. I think people are being hugely unrealistic about our expectations in his first season, its been 5 months and he's done more for the club than Roeder and Souness did in 3, he's turning SJP into a fortress, we're going in the right direction, be patient,see where we end up.

You're right he did. Robson was generally very consistent with his tactics though. He made some mistakes (Bowyer right wing), but when everyone was fit he knew his best team and always stuck with it. I would hope Allardyce will find a system that works and stick with it. Playing without wingers should never be considered though,, espescially when you have two of them fit on the bench.

I understand your point and I really hate to say this, but what you're saying is the same as many people said about Souness at the time.

Signing Parker, Emre, Boumsong, Luque etc, was regarded by many as indicative of the club going in the right direction, the "cancers" had been booted out by Souness and were replaced by these so-called "proper" players, so all he needed was more time. We know what happened and it was predictable, it didn't take hindsight because the warning signs were there.

I'm worried by Allardyce's negative attitude and negative approach but I see these things as warning signs, they are just different to those we saw under Souness but they are warning signs nevertheless. That's the bottom line for me and I think it's perfectly justified despite the short time he's been manager.

Unfortunate for us but I see a number of people are saying things I pointed out in the summer. Fat Sam is out of his depth and I see Owen on his bike replaced by 6 more grunts at two mill apiece. Plenty of bodies in the squad to win a ball but nobody capable of doing much with it.

Who are these cancers you talk about that Parker, Emre, Boumsong and Luque replaced?

Bellamy (who was replaced by Michael Owen) and?

Where were you last week, Sniffer?

Back at home.

Ah, I see. No internet access. :thup:

Harsh.

Of course. But why bother with a chat room when I'm with me mates?

I don't know. It just seems like you only come online when there is something to complain about, and you disappear when praise is due. I guess it's just coincidence.

No. Depends how busy I am and where I am.

If I'm at the Spurs match, why bother coming on here for an opinion? I've never really understood why people come on here if they live in the north east. Are they all like you Dave, locked in your darkened bedroom at your Mam's house? With no friends.

:lol:

Ouch!

If (as seems the case from his recent comments) we did go for a draw, why play 2 up front? Seems like a waste of a player to me, especially when neither is renowned for keeping hold of the ball.

Get out more, Dave.

Go on, you can do it.  :thup:

Please stop these cutting insults.

I won't bite again, as it would be hypocritical of me. :)

But who will remind us that we're not allowed to ask for or post links to illegal streams?

James.

I'm hurt.

It wasn't meant as biting criticism but merely a gentle effort to improve your life.

Sniff comes on to the forum to masterbate when newcastle lose

At least learn how to spell the big words or you'll just appear a dumb c***.

Are we going to get back on topic then?

Yes we are.

Dave, take the first step. Open those curtains.

*sigh* puberty....
Listen when you're done showing how big of a man you are, you can go on to say something constructive once in a while.

Pathetic really.

I don't see anything wrong with sniffer coming on to moan, if that's what he does.  I moan when we lose and doubt I'll ever change because I don't take defeat lightly.

I have more of a problem with people who accept defeat than I do with those who don't.

I don't think anyone accepts defeat like that yesterday. It was s*** from beginning to end and we couldn't even take the gift they gave us. Not only that, it was worryingly similar to previous away debacles.

Sniffer moaning is the counter balance for all the daft c***s who get carried away when we win a game tbh.

Fair enough. It was an innocent enough question.

How's the lung today, Dave?

It fell out.

He's just a knee-jerker iyam
Besides the moaners and daft excitable kevs are usually the same people, they just change their oppinions with every goal scored or against.

Sorry to hear that.

It would be s**** on here if we all held the same views, I think the mix of people on here is what makes for good debate, long may it continue.

I'll manage. Parky thinks I should wait until the other falls out before I start worrying.

Then visit the quacks as a last resort. :thup:

Nothing like kneejerk reactions.

I've held the same view on allardyce since he signed on. Unlike many, I'm unimpressed by two video screens, halter monitors and dieticians. What happens on the field is all that matters and the quality of our football is poor at best. We've scored some good individual goals but, bearing in mind that we haven't played a good team this season so far, I haven't watched a match where I came away feeling really good about the performance. Spurs was OK, but they were rubbish. Yesterday, IMO, was a f****** joke and if that's the best game plan that fat sam can come up with against a team like reading, FFS, then I don't know what he'll do against manure or a full strength arsenal team rather than the reserves.

Good post.

Because Allardyce is renowned for struggling against the big 4?

Going to places like Derby and Reading and playing for a point is just unacceptable.  We have a much superior squad and should be going to those places with the kind of attitude Man Utd and Arsenal would have - go at them playing attacking football and dominate the game.  Not sitting back and thinking a point is a good result.

It's quite clear Allardyce would happily take a point at every away game regardless who we're playing, instead of thinking we can go out and beat them.  Totally relying on home form to get a top 6 finish.

We're obviously in a much healthier position from last season, and of course I'd take finishing 6th playing 'boring' football, but more performances like yesterday and it will be a dismal mid table finish.  So far I'm not impressed.

Hate this  "big 4" phrase. Why not "big 5" or "big 2?"

Anyway, it doesn't matter what we do against the "big 4" if we do s**** against all the rest.

I just hope Allardyce has the ability to learn that that attitude may be fine for scrappers like Bolton, but won't cut the mustard here. I want to see him learning from his mistakes.

Without looking it up, I couldn't tell you what Bolton's record is against the " big 4 ".

I'm a little more concerned about us and what he's doing here. And it doesn't seem to be much so far judging by performances on the pitch.

Well considering one of his points was about how Sam will cope with one of the bigger sides then I think its quite relevant. 

What is your point, gejon?

Point is he has done well in the past tactics wise against the bigger sides so I am not really worrying.

I am however worried if he really is going to places like Derby and Reading playing for a draw though.

It took Bobby awhile to finally dump his dream of 352 and maybe Sam could do the same.

I agree with HTL. Stop doing a Benitez, pick your best side and formation and give it a go for 5 or so games continuously. Drop players who aren't performing but still keep the side similar. I appreciate tactical changes, looking particularly at exploiting a weakness or trying to combat a threat but against a Reading side leaking goals for fun nothing but our strongest side should do.

I wish I shared you confidence in that you aren't worried about playing them, Gejon.

Personally, I think we'll get turned over.

Tbh there is a chance we would get turned over by them no matter who was the manager, teams like that have players who when click can destroy you on their own. When there are 3 or 4 of them on top of their game its trouble, like Chelsea against high flying City yesterday.

However I do remember Allardyce getting the tactics spot on against these sort of sides quite a bit at Bolton.

And yet, teams like reading don't and Fat sam was still s*** scared of them and willing to settle for a point.

Something doesn't seem right to me.

There is somethng amiss at the moment and SA's thinking seems riddled with caution and deferance to clearly the whipping boys of the league.

I doubt his comment needs to be taken so literally, tbh. What he's saying is something like, "how negative will Allardyce be against some of the better teams?"

Fact is, if we beat the "big 4" and lose against everyone else we'd be relegated.

The point you appeared to be making is that at Bolton, Allardyce had a decent record against the "big 4." Well, my take on that point is that at this stage it's irrelevant what his record was against the "big 4."

BTW During his time as Bolton manager we were in the top 4 a couple of times (making us one of the "big 4" at that point in time) and I recall us thrashing them more than once.

Regardless of the defeat. I think the defence is much better already than last year although there is still the odd unwanted error.

The problems now for me has shifted to the midfield which normally supplies the cohesion and fluency to a side....Dare I say we are still missing a 'fulcrum'.

This is also being hampered by some bizarre positioning and team selections.

As a Liverpool fan reading this it very much reminds me of the constant arguments at EVERY match from 2000 onwards. We played the same way as you seem to be now, 8 men behind the ball and the big hoof up to Owen, hoping that he could turn p*** poor service into goals.

What you'll find, as the season progresses is that you may well nick a win against the "big four" now and again as they grow frustrated and Owen or Martins are good enough to take the on half chance that drops their way - however against the teams that you'd expect to beat you'll end up giving them so much possesion that their confidence will grow and you'll be on the end of some shocking results.

When it worked for us the fans were split into two camps, one that said the style of play is rubbish and it doesn't matter if we won and the other side would say that the win was the most important thing and as our confidece grows then so will the attractiveness of our play. The thing is though, that evenb when we won those trophies in 2001 (largely on the back of a rock solid defence and Owens goals) the style of play stayed the same. Houllier seemed incapable of sending out a team that played good football, and I think you have a similar guy in Allardyce - people say he played long ball at Bolton because he didn't have the resources but he had Anelka,Diouf,Campo,Hierro and Speed and whatever you think of them nobody can accuse them of not playing the ball along the ground.His ideal would be to win 1-0 every gameand if I was a toon supporter i wouldn't be very hopeful of much entertainment this season.

However, saying that if Owen stays, and with a bit of luck I can see you doing well in the F.A. cup this year. Whether you're prepared to accept the style in which you ploay is another thing bvut a guy that shells out so much on Alan Smith from his good friend Ferguson would not indicate that he's trying to re capture the free flowing days of Keegan

Without stirring a hornets nest, the defence was never the major problem despite the poor personnel.

Since Souness decimated Robson's team the problem has been a combination of a lack of decent forward play and midfield play.  This prevents us dictating and controlling games, resulting in the defence being put under too much pressure.

I said ages ago that you could put the best 4 defenders in the country in our team and we'd still leak goals due to the pressure they'd be under. Obviously better defenders are important and we needed better players at the back, but we also need to control games and we won't do that by improving individuals at the back.

Remember that we were a top 4 team under Robson with poor defenders. That's because we had the players ahead of them to threaten the opposition and to control football matches, thus proving it's possible to do well under those circumstances. If you can't dictate and control games you'll get nowhere, which is why the problem has been midfield/strikers for a while now and is why we're average/poor most of the time even with better defenders now.

Would Spurs be an example of this last season?

Top notch post.  blueyes.gif

I think I've found myself agreeing with this before. And you're absolutely right. I kicked off a number of threads in the summer as it dawned on me we weren't going to buy and creativity/controllers/fulcrums. If you don't get an even share or control of the midfield the defence starts to drop back/get tired/ lose people and flaky goals result.

This sums it up nicely...


https://www.newcastle-online.com/2007/10/27/a-pragmatic-mis-reading-of-the-script/

if allardyce attempts the same tactics in the next away game he will get slaughtered off the fans.(and rightly so)

agree with the previous posts about not providing an attacking threat. tho it's not just about setting up a midfield that will dominate possession and dictate the tempo of the game. it's ok to keep the ball, play safe passes and slow down the pace of the game on occasion, but not all the time and not from minute zero against the likes of reading. people have said that the ball didn't stick when we got it up front but it's not just about that either. the call is more for having the attacking players/creativity/pace/width to keep the opposition on their feet, pushing them back, making them second-guess their own play, worry about their positioning, making them play the safe passes and the percentages game. if they are more worried about us then they're not going to be able to have to confidence and freedom to work fluent attacking moves. but in a few away games this season it's been us playing this football and not the opposition. in fact Sam seems intent on MAKING us play this football, which i find strange, it simply invites pressure.

 by providing an attacking threat of our own we're not only more likely to score goals but there's also a good chance we'll concede less, dominate the territorial battle and pin the opposition back around their box. this is what we did when we had the likes of robert and bellamy playing for us, taking the pressure off crap defenders like O'brien, bramble, dabizas and so on, which minimised the chances of those players being targeted for mistakes by other teams, while also giving poor to average full-backs likes Hughes and Bernard the chance to play some good football going forwards. none of those players have gone on to do anything noteworthy elsewhere.

we also had players in that side like shearer, speed and solano who could not only attack well but kept possession brilliantly and knew how to play it safe from time to time, meaning we could adapt to different styles. There is a school of thought that says Allardyce only favours this kind of player, who are essential to a team, but they need risk-takers alongside them like Dyer Bellamy and Robert for a good balance. Robert used to lose the ball a ridiculous amount of times (which is perhaps why the less intelligent hated him) but that is cos he was trying something different. Allardyce is perhaps too risk-averse to go out and buy players like these, or someone like Martins or N'Zogbia who seem to be in and out of the side. I remember from his Bolton days that he would keep tabs on every pass or shot a player made, and if they wasted possession by taking a chance a player would be criticised. Kevin Nolan scored a cracking long range shot one match and in the after-game interview said "the gaffer will shout at me for hitting it from distance, cos he hates it". such an attitude will inhibit a players attacking instincts and the ironic consequence is that the opposition will be freer to attack and dominate the game, not having to worry about we get up to.

What are the reasons iyo SA isn't aware of/gives credence to this stuff? Seems very set in his ways.

don't know about him being set in his ways,he has ditched his 4-3-3 for the time being and he didn't start off at bolton with it,he has in the past adapted.....bloody well hope he adapts before a week on saturday!

I said it in the other thread but it's worth repeating: what is the tactical justification for playing a guy like Emre wide left? he hasn't got the pace or running to do well in that role, in fact he's designed NOT to play wide.

I really would love to be able to wrap my head around Allardyce's thinking there as before this I've always considered him to be tactically switched on. But why you need elaborate tactics to beat a bunch of no hope try-hards like Reading is beyond me in any case as with the quality of players we have available we could probably run rings round them with a reserve side given the licence to do so.

Surely the point is that we didn't try to beat Reading. We went out with the intention of settling for a draw against a team that was leaking goals. Tactics...what tactics????

Sam, tactical genius?  ;D yeah right!

we may have lost and played crap but...reading are s**** and only have shorey or murty

We're in no position to take the piss.

We're s**** by Newcastles high standards but right now we are a good team by Reading standards.

I suppose we measure ourselves against our historical rivals like Swindon, Oxford and teams like Bristol City, Millwall, Bournemouth. So right now we are good. We're above all those teams.

We're not on the same planet as you Geordie boys!

Although they weren't that much better, at least Reading tried to play football and kept it on the deck occasionally.

Do you think Fat Sam actually tells his players...including Given.....to hoist as many high balls as possible to Martins and Owen? Is this his team talk?

Because I can't think of any other reason that we'd flog a tactic that clearlly doesn't work.

I think Sam will get it right for you in the end though.

I just think he needs to realise that he is now managing a proper big club. This is not Bolton anymore. You can't go into matches with the top players that Newcastle have and not play to their strengths.

different set of priorities. he sees the problem at newcastle as one of defensive frailty as well as fans who are impatient and don't appreciate solid football. it's a bit disappointing because these are stereotypical and superficial problems, the kind of thing the lazy media come up with, and not in-depth analyses of our problems that comes from familiarity with and examination of our play. How many times has sam spoke to the media with the attitude that he is educating fans, rather than simply informing them and letting them make their own minds up. he's indoctrinating us to his philosophy of football. when he has publicly laid into Taylor and Martins, he's not done it to improve their football, he's done it to make it more palatable to fans when he leaves them out/sells them in the future.

 i'd imagine for sam that getting us playing solid, defensive, disciplined, safe football, where everyone knows their job and position, where all defensive situations are drilled so repetitively that it becomes second nature, is the highest priority this season. he's been reinforcing that message again and again and again, even if it is at the cost of the attacking side of the game, or even if it costs us points away from home. he'll be thinking if we pack the midfield with players who can win the ball, play it narrow and congest the park to limit the opposition's passing, we'll have a better chance of blocking off the other side and then our talented individuals can do something on their own. whereas if we play with two wingers and an attacking central midfielder as most fans want, we only have one defensive midfielder who will get over-ran. if that happens then - shock horror - we're relying on outscoring the opposition, something he desperately wants to get away from even though it is the bedrock of winning football games.

 he'll be thinking that we have enough individual talent so that the attacking side of the game takes care of itself, where we can create and nick goals out of individual brilliance rather than getting us playing expansive attacking football as a team and having to work on overall fluidity in training. i'd imagine that most of training consists of defensive regimes, whereas attacking movements are limited to specifically tailored strategies - like enrique hitting it long for martins, or playing corners to the near post vs spurs - rather than us playing 5-a-sides to work on our one-touch play or awareness in the final third a la arsenal.

 and besides, our attack can be dismantled because it can easily be rebuilt at a later stage on top of new defensive foundations that always take time to lay down. and lets face it Sam doesn't really fancy any of our attacking players (other than those he has signed) and would more than likely love to replace them all with his type of player and to play 4-3-3/4-5-1. i might be wrong but i don't recall him coming out and criticising our general attacking play this season, even though it's been poor at times, whereas after every single match he hits home the defensive message, even if we've defended well but failed to keep a clean sheet.

just devil's advocate here but i'm suspecting his thoughts are along those lines. in the long-term it may well be the thing we need as a team, though i don't neccessarily agree that the means justify the end in this case, and during the process of making us tough and hard to beat, it is going to be frustrating.

he could be right but the enrique ball to martins is a well executed decent tactic provided it isn't overdone so it loses the ability to catch teams off guard. i've been calling for martins to be used in this manner for a while. for example i'd play passes in blind for the first 15mins between full back and centre half to push the defence back and get them turning but martins has to read it and chase.

broke it up a bit for you mick, as it was rather blocky.

I meant the block of text.

Thanks, it's probably my old eyes.

Well, FWIW, I think that Zogs and Milner should have started, but having said that I thought that Emre and Geremi had both played wide at their previous clubs? (I picked that up from what others have said, not really sure how accurate it is)

Anyway, if it is true it would explain tactical justification, even if it was the wrong move. If not then obviously it proves nowt. Someone else can look it up and find out!

playing emre wide (pretty sure he's played there before for us) could have made sense as what is the point of getting wide and slinging in crosses for the like of owen/martins, sure they can get headers but it's not the best plan of attack,so emre could look to drag inside instead and play the defence splitting passes we were all told he's bring with him a couple of years ago....however the teams tactics appeared to be "stop them scoring and hope to nick one", away at the top 4 maybe but not reading/derby. even when we had possession the first priority was "how do we defend this position",tell you what allardyce, if we give them something to worry about they may not attack as much or as freely.

Emre is wasted out wide, has he ever played well out there for us? he thrives on interchanging with those directly ahead of him, not running into space, he doesn't have the outright pace for that. geremi played wide right for Boro but that was yonks ago and when he played right-wing against spurs he looked even worse than milner.

 :lol:

I like the last line, you should have gone into politics.  Obviously if you have then forget this post.

Exactly Johnny. Emre just doesn't have the physical attributes to play wide. I don't like seeing Alan Smith out wide but at least he can run up and down the pitch so making him useful in a stopping role.

Geremi wide isn't the best, but he's like Smith, able to run the pitch and can put in decent crosses early and in the right areas so that I can understand.

No-one would give a toss about 'Tactics' IF - IF the team won away from SJP regularly - they don't, so people try to find out why....
We appreciate 3 points - how they come away from SJP matters not a jot, but they are NOT coming...

Am I the only one who think Sam discover something about the team that he is forced to apply such negative tactics during away?

Playing for a point against reading just wont ride well with most newcastle fans,
For f*ck sake sam  get your head around it we dont want negative football.
Oh for the days of keegan again.   >:(

One touch football is what we need, its effective and the most attractive style of football, Arsenal are just fantastic to watch play, their movement off the ball is second to non and their speed and vision of pass is superb.

Where we dwell on the ball and get caught in possession all the time, lack of movement off the ball from us is very poor, most of our passes are back and square unless its a long ball forward.
Things have to change!!

It was such a boring game to watch and it was another game where we didn't look like scoring. No idea why we didn't start with Zog and milner, with Emre and Barton in the middle.

I am sure Sam had thoughts on why it was a good idea, well it wasn't. I hate it when I hear teams play for draws, play to f****** win for fucks sake. If you go looking for a draw 9 times out of 10 you will lose.

Hopefully things will change, I am coming home for good in 4 weeks.

All I can say is that I hope he learns his lessons.

Can't quite work out what is worse. Allardyce playing for a point or admitting he played for a point!

I'd prefer he was honest really.

I never thought I'd see the day when Newcastle of all teams came to Reading to play for a point.

I just thought it was teams like Peterborough who used to come to Reading to play for a point.

I thought BS would have learnt from Derby, but the team was largely different, so i guess they cant be compared in all aspects. But ill be worried if he doesnt learn from Reading...

People are being way too hard on Sam. He's still learning about his players, and testing different things out. Reading finished above us in the league last time, aren't far behind us now, and have a decent home record. He figured that we weren't good enough to go out there and attack them from the start. That may have been the wrong call in the end, but it wasn't a crazy call.

The one decision that surprised me was starting with Oba and using Smith as a sub. Smith's retention of the ball and link up play is far better than Oba's, and that's what we needed. Maybe Sam is a bit fed up of Smith's regular bookings and bans, and didn't want to let him think he could walk back into the side. Maybe he was a bit reluctant to break up a strikeforce after a 3-1 win. Hopefully he wasn't influenced by the many fans who don't like Smith. Whatever, dropping Oba would have been the controversial but correct decision, and he didn't make it.

where as others see a pattern forming if you include the boro and derby games (you could include poor tactics at citeh)

https://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11678_2834895,00.html

stop them playing by having possession rather than just defending..............just a thought.

Still a worrying nod towards spoiling tactics rather than taking the initiative ourselves. :undecided:

That was a stupid come back...If Reading are s*** then NUFC were SUPER S***...BTW you only need 3 *** not 4 for s***

Can anyone beat such post ? Wrong X Wrong = SUPER WRONG

Exactly...Why can't we just play our game and not care about the opposition...I'm sure we will do better...We need to play to our players' strength

We weren't good enough to go out and attack a team that had leaked 20 odd goals so far this season?

Are you f****** crazy or just stupid, Bob? 

The problem is that these days it is just too risky to play for a 0-0 result. Because of the pace the game is played at and changes in the structure of the footballs now being used, you are always likeley to get hit with a sucker punch from 30 or 40 yards out (as against Derby) and the team you have put out can't switch to all out attack. The amount of stunning goals we now see are becoming commonplace and no defence will stop them.
The only way to defend is to defend in the opponents half and to keep them in their own half means that you need to be attacking them

Someone should take the fat man aside, sit him down with a pie and a glass of ale to settle him down. Then they should give him a broad overview of what happened last year to Newcastle in the UEFA Cup when we were booted out.

Playing to win at home = 4-2 win, fans very happy.

Playing for the 0-0 draw away = 2-0 loss, Roeder lost all remaining fans on his side. Roeder booted shortly thereafter.

1. Newcastle fans will simply not accept playing for 0-0 draws

2. Playing for 0-0 draws NEVER works.

Play to keep a clean sheet, fine. But if you don't have a plan to go forward and put goals away you concede the running of the game to the opposition. Frankly HTL and everyone else is right, if he continues in this way he will rightfully get booted next May.

Indeed.

I can guaruntee that if Newcastle had played to their strengths and attacked Reading you would have won.

There is no way our defence would have coped with Martins raw pace and Owens amazing movement if they had been given the service.

Better players will always win if they play to their strengths. Newcastle were daft on Saturday by coming to Reading of all places and trying to play in a way that your players are clearly not comfortable with. There was no reason for it. I hope Sam will sort it out.

I used to think that Big Sam was clever getting a team like Bolton to punch above their weight. But he needs to now adapt because he is playing in a different weight now. There is no need to play the same stifling tactics when you have better players.

you seem to know more about us than some of our own fans do.

Really?

I think you knew what he meant.

Why is everyone so sure we should have beat them if we would play attacking football? One of the biggest problem in the match was the defence and to start play even more offensive Reading would have even more space to counter-attack.

And why did Reading finish above us in the league last season? -OK, we had a terrible season with injuries etc. But in my opinion Reading did better than anyone expected because they didn't compromise how to play. They played their style, and got a good season out of that. With the squad Sam have in command, he should be Boss enough to do the same  :knuppel2:

Well, I've seen Reading get thumped a few times this season. And the one thing that has always been consistent when Reading have been thumped this season is the quality of the opposition attack.

Pompey who put 7 past us had Benjani & Utaka.
West Ham who put three past us had Bellamy.
Bolton who put 3 past us had Anelka and Diouf
Blackburn who smashed 4 in had McCarthy

Newcastle had Martins and Owen. I was fully expecting another rout.

But due to the negativity of Big Sam's tactics it didn't happen. It really should have happened but it didn't.

The teams who lost to us didn't particularly have good strikers. Wigan (No Heskey he was injured), Everton, Derby (toothless) & surprisingly Newcastle.

I was fully expecting to lose that game. I really was!

But never mind.

As long as Sam learns. But I'm starting to wonder if he will. Because this is just typical Sam. This is how he did things with Bolton.
His style will always secure a top 8 finish. But will it break into the top 4? I suppose it can do, because Mourinho played something similar for Chelsea. But Chelsea did it with better players. Although I don't think Chelsea played to their strengths. They played within Mourinho's image. Now that Jose has gone, Chelsea are starting to play more to their strengths.

I think Newcastle should be looking to steam roller teams like Reading, Derby, Bolton, Wigan, Sunderland, Fulham, Brum. Your players are clearly alot better than all these teams.

And I know how Reading play. And I know that if Newcastles players wanted it badly enough and they clearly didn't. And I know that if they played to their strengths they definitely would have won. Reading haven't beaten any big 4 teams yet. And thats because they just steam roller us. Newcastle should have done the same. I'm just surprised thats all. I'd like Sam to be alot more positive.

Why am I sure we'd beat reading playing attacking football?

Nothing is for sure, but how about the fact they've conceded 20 odd goals  so far this season?

I doubt if many teams will follow fat sam's approach and play for a draw.

I agree there, ridiculous to keep it tight and play for a draw, especially when we can't keep a clean sheet either.

I agree with that. The thing is your defence is not good enough to try and play a defensive game and eek out a win.
Chelsea were able to do it under Mourinho because they had Terry, Carvalho, Cole & Ferreira. Such a strong unit, so difficult to break down. If Reading were up against that type of defensive unit we would have struggled and you could have just nicked a goal and won it like that.

Newcastle is a fantastic attacking unit. As proven by home results and the manner of your victories at SJP this season.
If your strength is attack and your weakness is defence then surely you got to attack. As the old saying goes. The best form of defence is attack.

Readings weakness is defence. So what do we do, we attack you like hell at the Mad Stad. Now if you attacked us back you would have outscored us. I'm pretty sure about that.

Pompey outscored us by 7-4. Blackburn outscored us by 4-2. Newcastle would have outscored us with the quality of your forward play. It would have made for an amazing game as well.

Thats why I think Big Sam got his tactics badly wrong. I think Big Sam and your defenders were blaming the defeat on a lack of concentration at the back. Thats nonsense. We had lots of chances. Lita could have had a couple. Sonko should have scored. Lita missed from just a couple of yards out. Newcastle had no chances. You needed us to help you out with a goal.

If Newcastle were more positive you would have beaten us. Simple as that. It really is that straight forward. Big Sam has got to have a much more positive approach at Sunderland. Is that your next away game. If you attack them hard, you will win.

Halford is rubbish by the way. He is slow and prone to mistakes. You can really pummell them down the left wing.

If Sam goes to the SoS and we play like we did at the weekend and at Derby, they will beat us and a huge slice of patience will be eaten away. Even a point would not be any particular consolation.

Let's have Milner and Charlie start and f****** go at them. Collins and Halford up against those two SHOULD be a no-contest.

Beat the Mackems and everything is rosy. Lose and the first (serious) calls for Sam's head begin.

I would hate to be a football manager tbh (except for the salary). Walking on a knife edge from game to game. Over the moon! Sick as a Parrot.

Yep. This tendency to go overboard with praise when we win and scream blue murder when we lose has never been more obvious than this last week.

And what is going on in your signature? Is that a real ref?

We're a 'fantastic attacking unit', are we? Personally, I haven't seen a single game this year, home or away, when we've looked anything like 'fantastic' going forward. In fact, we've been a bit stodgy.

As for unleashing the dynamic duo of Martins and Owen, (as suggested in your previous post) well on the few occasions that they've been together, they've looked no more convincing as a combination in practice than in theory. Martins can't hold the ball up, and while Owen's a bit better in that department, his strength is as a finisher. If Viduka had been fit, he'd have played. As individuals, Owen's lost a fair bit of pace and Martins' touch on the ball is very poor.

You weren't playing Portsmouth and Blackburn at home, and in any case, at the moment, they are better sides than us. Likewise Everton, who you beat. We are what the league table suggests - a mid-table team, albeit one who can improve.

I wouldn't have picked the same team that Allardyce fielded, but at the same time, things are nowhere near 'simple' or 'straightforward'. And attack isn't always the best form of defence. That's a cliche.

https://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11678_2834895,00.html


So he's concerned about our form away from home, yet he's still going to keep up with this 'stop the oppo playing and get a draw' attitiude.

Sort it out, you fat prick.  How about we play our own, attacking style of football instead of just trying to block out the oppistion.  Playing for a draw at the Stadium of s**** will be unacceptable.  If we go there, play how we did against Reading and Derby and end up losing, he will be under severe pressure from the fans already.  Especially after last time we were there we demolished them under Roeder.

Worrying comments, imo.

Allardyce seems to understand that we have a problem away from home, where he's struggling at the minute is recognising that he's partly to blame for creating the problem.

The players are not comfortable when put under pressure because we have no outlet, we have nobody to take the ball into the danger area and give the defenders a little time to think and re-organise themselves.

We take thousands away to every game we play and those supporters should be an asset but they're not because as soon as we see the team sheet we think we're going to get beat.  If we think we're going to have a go at the opposition then we're upbeat and will shout for 90 minutes, that doesn't happen with negative tactics.

Sometimes it takes someone looking from the outside in to state the obvious and you have hit the nail on the head. I think a lot of Newcastle fans who have defended some of Sam's mistakes simply haven't been able to see the wood for the trees.

Sam is trying to change the culture of the club. But in reality it is Sam who must change. A lot of people worried about this scenario.